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Profile of Udi Aloni
Anger or rage it’s not always bad, we have [...]
Udi Aloni: Anger or rage it’s not always bad, we have to put it in. People have to work against hatred, and we should have to reduce all of them. But, if somebody oppressed he has to have rage, because rage might make him fight against suppression. I really want to say that all those things that we see them as negatives are not only negative. I am afraid sometimes that if everyone will be against violence, rage, hatreds, it’s a good way to control everyone also. I mean if there is a society without justice and freedom, you want people to have rage, and be able to even perform kind of violence against it, or a nonviolent violence, or to feel the need for it, and the urge for it. So, the question is not what one should do against violence, rage, and hatred, but what we can do in order to change the society that people will not have the reason to have those three. And, even if you do, they will have it, but then they can go to an S&M club may be, not -- and perform it in a more civilized way. But, right now, for needs to fight against power and oppressor, sometimes, we should maintain rage. Unfortunately, we can't put everyone to sleep, and let the system do its job. I really have to say that all this structure make you sometimes answer weird answers, sometime as a tone like a preacher, sometime as stupid. So I just want to think that all of it is a more kind of a big performance, that I am one of their actor there. And if I am stupid, my stupidity is what I am adding here. I’ve never been in a situation like that, and the situation, it’s fascinated, but also terrifying, because so many things I said that are not accurate here, but they are already there on the internet. How can I erase them? I cannot. So, forgive me for all my stupid comments, please, please, please. Here we complete our answer.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Yes.
Udi Aloni: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! Yes.
This is the million dollar question [...]
Udi Aloni: This is the million dollar question probably. What is after capitalism? After capitalism is what we dream for. After capitalism is, well, after capitalism is what we are all searching for, I think. One way of thinking about it, let's first destroy capitalism and whatever will come that will after capitalism. The other ways to rethink together which new system can adopt the thinking of human rights, human equality, justice for all. And keep still this entrepreneurial nature of people. I would say that the fight between freedom and justice, that people can belong to the same side, but many time they are fighting. Because today freedom is for the rich and justice is what the poor fight for. If somehow we can put more freedom to the poor, and more justice for the poor and reduce some of the freedom maybe that capitalism fight for, the freedom of the privileged. We might find a new system that will be more productive for bigger amount of people. I still repeat, I think we should go back to old revolution that fails, and go and think why'd it fail? And try to take the good from them. Because the problem we gave up on so many good ideas because they were corrupted by power. So, what is after capitalism? I think if there is a reason for this Table to survive, is to start this question.
I think it's very important to think that [...]
Udi Aloni: I think it's very important to think that who is democracy? What is democracy? The idea put democracy -- I can't do that. I need something to put in my ear. I can't do that. It doesn't work? -- Alright, I'll try again. I think that democracy and dictatorship are not really in opposite to each other. It depends on what we call democracy. But whatever we call democracy today, of course it's part of the capitalist and global economies. And they collaborate with the dictatorship. The question itself give us a feeling like there is a fight between the dictatorship and the democracy. Now I have something to put in my ear and I will be able to concentrate on the answers. Because I took it from Berlin, Alexander Pratt because there is so much noise coming from everywhere. Each one is extremely smart, but all together it's big noise for me. So try again, I really want to put the democracy and dictatorship in our world are not opposite things. The democracy regime as such, as we dream about cannot be involved with the colonialist economy.
Hey, if -- I mean we have to change the [...]
Udi Aloni: Hey, if -- I mean we have to change the whole structure of society. You cannot only tell kids come to have education. First, you have to build the structure of education, you have to change all the structure of poor and rich, you have to change the structure of the one that is the outcast. You have to change so much in the inner structure of society. I mean, one way is to use the police in order to reduce it, and this is a short term solution. And the other hand is to put more money in education; it is a middle kind of solution. But the main things again, its radicalization, the way we think about society, is radicalization, the way we think about the people who live on the fringe. It’s about to be able to create societies in the fringe, who don’t want to be in the center, might get jealous in the center. It’s the option to create different kind of culture that can live on the same time and enjoy themselves. It’s important to know that people who choose different ways, they can live there without guilt, that become to rage, that become to jealousy, that become to anger. But in order to do that we have to change so much in our inner thinking. This time is a tragic time because we all think inside the capitalist framework. And, although all the things are said against it, some pathetic, but as long that there is a big community who doesn’t know what to do with themselves, that we offer doubt, and money is the only spiritual thing, we are in a problem. You know, every teenagers will have rage, and we cannot fight against this rage. It is where we take this rage to, and how much we can change the structure, that they feel how they live, and the way they choose to live, it's not condemned, and therefore they don't have to fight for it. I mean, I speak more on a certain kind of direction, but of course who cares? I mean nobody clean the drugs from the poor places, only from the rich ones. Nobody care really to put most of the money. Just imagine if United States would put most of the money in their poor neighborhood instead of giving guns to Israel. Already we saw violence in the Middle East, and violence in the streets of New York. But who cares right now? It's so difficult; it's so difficult because we have to do a long work of changing frameworks.
USA. This is really the mystery of [...]
Udi Aloni: USA. This is really the mystery of humankind. How in the end patriotism is stronger than any other feeling of community. We saw it in the first war, world, when the all the socialist parties said that they will not go to the war, and the day the war open all the socialists in front joined the French war and in Germany. And the solidarity of the socialist party failed. And you see it in Israel now. So many people that really believe in peace and know that it's not so difficult to make peace with the Palestinian people, once the war start the whole become nationalistic. So I think that it's always surprising how really a minority in the place when the war is happened, they become so loyal to the place just to be loved by their master. In Israel, for example, there are many Jews from Arab countries, Arab Jews that they could show solidarity with the Muslim, the Arab Muslims, instead they are fighting the Arab Muslims in order not to look at minorities an Arab Jew. And try to treat nice the Western Jew, or to be nice to the master. I don't know why exactly the answer why it's happened, but it's always shock me. In the end people are more loyal to the patriot than to their own family. Parents send their kids to die for the patriot, for the states, even if they don't believe in this war. So I think there is a lot to say why only why minorities protect their…go be loyal to their own country. Why also people from a family are loyal to their country more to their own family. This power of patriotism is a essential part of we belong to the tribe. It's fascinating. It's terrible, but it is fascinating. And how we can dismantle it, how we can said what Muhammed Ali said, "I'm not going to Vietnam, because they don't treat me nice." It's a good [audio end]
we don't need no education.. father, leave [...]
Udi Aloni: we don't need no education.. father, leave the kids alone...
Why is there no peace in the Middle East [...]
Udi Aloni: Why is there no peace in the Middle East yet? The answer is so simple. Peace can happen immediately. So I ask the same question all the time. It's not a complex one. Peace is very easy to achieve in the Middle East. And that's what makes this question so frustrated. If it's so simple, why doesn't happen? And there are colonialist reason and there is a paranoia reason. The paranoias of the Jews, the paranoias of the Palestinian. The colonialism of America that push Israel more and more into oppression instead of try to bring peace to this place. Religious issues, unconscious issues, the hate of the other. But all those are layers that are so complicated to destroyed, when the truth is so simple. Everyone who live in the Mediterranean, in the Middle East I mean, knows that in the way it’s so simple to make this peace. It's so simple to make this peace. There is something so beautiful about the Palestinian people and the Jewish people live in Israel that they can together change the whole world. If they make this peace there, the peace will go over to so many places. But I think that the enemies are not Israel and Palestine, but Israel and Palestine should fight United States and Saudi Arabia and all the people who have interest not to create this beautiful place that could be Israel-Palestine. So let's remember the answer is simple. Our battles is to destroy all the prejudice that doesn't make it happen. Our job is to stop America to support this war so hard. To stop America send us so much weapons. And make them force us in one tenth of the money they put in Iraq, to force us to make this beautiful peace between those two people beause once the Palestinian and the Israeli would live equally with self respect, with respect for each other and solidarity, it will echo to the entire world. It will stop the stupid battles that the state decide of the culture between the West and the Muslims. It's such a bullshit thing. In Israel and Palestine we can prove that this is together can be the most beautiful culture one can have. I know I'm sound like a dreamer, but this is a three minute thing, so it's better to give a dream. And the peace is not there because too many people can not handle it. It will destroy the pleasure of paranoia. It will destroy the want of colonialism to control by dividing two nations. It serves too many interests. But deep inside the Israeli and the Palestinian knows that the only thing that will make it right. If Israel will end this occupation, will give the right to the Palestinian to be equal, totally equal, without patronizing, and we will create the most beautiful Middle East. Because I love those two peoples so much. So that's what I have to say right now. Of course the answer it's much longer.
Probably by refusing, probably by going to [...]
Udi Aloni: Probably by refusing, probably by going to jail, and not participate in the army, probably by standing with our bodies in front of the towns, probably we cannot stop our governments to go to war. Probably we have to work, you know because I'm pessimistic I can't wait for an optimistic thing. Right now, and I repeat it many times, we cannot bend the powers above, we cannot fight directly our government, so our job is to change the forces of the underground. To tremble in them, to work on the unconscious of people, to tell them 'we are different.' We cannot stop the guns with our bodies, but we still should put our bodies in front of the guns. We cannot break the wall with our body, but still we should put our bodies before the people who build the wall. But we should begin to change the structure of the ideology that make us every time go to the war that our government decide. And this is a long term solution, maybe very long term solution, but maybe the only one now when we are such in minority. When the powers above are so strong that we cannot bend them. Let's tremble the forces of the underground. It's kind of poetic, but there is true in it.
I believe, we don’t need a world government. [...]
Udi Aloni: I believe, we don’t need a world government. We just need that the UN will be more powerful, that the UN will have more teeth with their decision. But all the concept of a global government, concept of kind of [inaudible] society is something that is impossible. The last thing that we want is a global government. What we need is a UN when there is a kind of a negotiation between all the governments, that many times make the right decision, will have the power to force their decision. I wish that the UN have the power to call America, to stop America the war in Iraq, because the UN didn’t agree to it. I wish that the UN have the power to stop massacres in Africa. I wish the UN would have the power to force peace on Israel because somehow I feel for example, and I have to speak most of the time with Israel, that if peace was enforced on Israel, peace between Israel, Palestinian and Lebanon, after a year Israeli would be so happy, he’d say how we didn’t do it before. So, let’s forget all this concept of global government, but let’s agree that the UN with more teeth can do a much better job.
First answer is yes. The answer is it [...]
Udi Aloni: First answer is yes. The answer is it corrupt? Definitely it is corrupt. In order to change it we have to go deep to how the system work. I think even though Marxism failed it is a productive thing. We should learn a lot from the criticisms in it's had on the capitalist system. The corruption is so inherent that it's not built by one conspirator, one corrupted person, one corrupted corporation. There is something built in that it's using and the greed is the main system that the West is working. I think all of us have to try to think from the beginning. To go back to as [Valtrebinimen] said we should go back to revolution that fails and try to fix them. I know that alternative to capitalism failed and that the main power of capitalism is that there is no other alternative. Of course there are other alternatives. I'm sure that some of them exist in a Marxist way of thinking. But more to understand religion, humankind, human needs. And it's a long process of revolution and evolution together. This system has to end. And one way is just to fight it. And another group should rethink what we can offer to make it better. Maybe in a certain time we should have again conviction that it can be changed, because the system built itself to hold the corruption forever by making us very pessimistic. They gave us conspiracy theories so we think we cannot fight the power. They make us very cynical. And they taught us that there is no other alternative. I think it's time to bring hope that there is alternative. That there were radical changers. That we should start this today. And there are tools in the past already that help us understand how to do it.
It depends who calls what is self-defense [...]
Udi Aloni: It depends who calls what is self-defense and who calls terrorism. Those who dominate the world call the definitions. Throughout history we have learned that many people who were considered terrorists were now no more considered that. In mandate Palestine, when Palestine was under the British mandate before 1948, they were calling, the British were calling the Jewish groups terrorists that were the same speakers today are speaking of self-defense. The whole attack, for example, on Lebanon over the month of August was called self-defense. Why is it so in our world today is mainly because the U.S. allows this to happen.
We should understand that our security is [...]
Udi Aloni: We should understand that our security is our freedom, and again the way we build it is all the time -- sometimes we really have doubt, is really freedom is an option for us to sacrifice for our security, or the whole system built by that will take our freedom –will be taken from us anytime what we call security appear. So, I think that all the concept of the state of emergency that take our freedom right in order to give security, is inherent in what’s called Western democracy, to keep the democracy function, and function only to the privileged one, who can enjoy freedom. So, again, we should read the question differently. It said how much freedom we should gain in order to protect our security. How much freedom we should have more in order to protect security, that’s the way the question had been asked. So, as I repeat, in many question here I see that the question themselves that come in good faith, already have inside the terminology of the Western discourse. So, we have to rethink of the question themself. So here I repeat, how much freedom we should need more to enhance in order to increase our security.
The first time you hear this question, you [...]
Udi Aloni: The first time you hear this question, you feel it is really annoying. What do you mean life without fear? Our way of life, the western life is full of fear. It’s using those countries; they all feel in their intuition that they have been used by it. It’s true that they don’t realize how those dictatorship are part, are part of this Western control. It’s time for us to understand there is no fight between the West and the Islamic dictatorship, for example. Saudi Arabia and America are on the same side. They are on the same side. The dictatorship of Saudi Arabia is part of the Western way of life. It’s part of the terror of the West on the one who have not. The question how we can use this, ‘have not’, those people who have nothing to a different place. I think South America is a great example of people who are frustrated against the West’s control and use of them. But, and this is the -- but they are not supporting their own dictatorship. So, the question probably is more in Third Worlds that really have a lot of rage against the West, and may be they don’t understand that the West and their regimes are on the same side. So, I would say that this question really terrified me not because of the first part, but mostly because I could say why really they don’t fight against their own dictatorship, they don’t fight against their own dictatorship, they fight against the West. May be they feel that if they fight against the West their dictatorship will fall apart as well. So, it’s very complex answer, but the question for sure have inside the ideology that it’s two different opposition, and it’s not. For example, the Palestinian fight for freedom for may times, and tried to create a democracy in Palestine. And the West is the one who destroyed it each time it became possible, I mean, especially United States and Israel. So, let’s repeat and say dictatorship and the West are on the same side. The people fight strongly against the Western agenda because they understand in their intuition that they have been used.
I really believe that if we concentrate on [...]
Udi Aloni: I really believe that if we concentrate on the true rights and needs of humans the rest will follow. If we really understand the true needs of humankind we also understand that animal and planets are part of it. So I don't have to divide it to three different issues. I would say let’s concentrate on what’s good to human but what's really good to human, not in the short term, in the long term. And the rest will just fall into this concept. Because they are not in contradict to each other. They are complementary to each other.
Maybe we should call it solidarity; those [...]
Udi Aloni: Maybe we should call it solidarity; those very simple words, solidarity. You know when this war in Israel happened against Lebanon and Israel it got crazy and too over patriotic and fight against everyone that took to them Arab. It was really terrible. Suddenly those old Marxists came in the middle of Tel Aviv, some kids, and there was shouting, [more in another language]. And there was something so beautiful about suddenly for a whole small community calling for solidarity. It means an Arab-Jew solidarity. And I think this is the responsibility. Once we have solidarity, you have responsibility. So when all those proto-fascist energy came out and this nationalism. And for us, you have to understand the communist party, these words are something ridiculous and anachronistic about it. But those young Arab and Jewish kids in the middle of the war calling for solidarity, this is responsibility, once you have solidarity. So there are some good old terms that we should bring back to the front. So I think we all can sing, [more in another language]. Solidarity between Arab and Jews. [more in another language] I just said, "Solidarity between Arabs and Jews." It's part of responsibility. I just told him there is this experience of Berlin Alexanderplatz here, of the book. It's all those noises come around and I'm in the middle of Berlin there is a description of how the train going and see the ads and hear the people around. So I feel part of this book now. It's pretty cool, thanks.
Sometimes I'm not answering a question not [...]
Udi Aloni: Sometimes I'm not answering a question not because I don't really think they're important, but sometimes I think they are too important to answer in three minutes. And the situation of women in this structure, not only in power, but in all weaving of life, it's a very complex one. And it's interesting how, like in my left, there is a woman from Afghanistan that speak how when it's really women has no power there in the Taliban society. But it's also interesting in the West where there is appearance of power and yet there is no power. That the result the possibility for big part, equal part of the society, but they are not. And I'm not here to blame. I think we have to understand the structure and that it's much deeper. How we can weave in those. And it's also not only women and men, like we can use some queer theory to understand really different kind of genders that has to live in the same society somehow, sometime through conflict, sometime through harmony. Harmony it's not the best place to be always. Sometimes a conflict is a place that creates something new. So when we speak about gender question, I would like to raise queerness as a way of thinking about alternative gender relationship in society and not only the dualistic concept of male and female. Not because it's not the main gender debate, but [audio ends]
I think there is always conception. What's [...]
Udi Aloni: I think there is always conception. What's Darwinism mean and what’s evolution mean? And but this in conceptually also think that there is a true progress and a linear progress. I think Darwinism and when we started to act and really to put those two together, it's too weird for me to concept. So the real question is the state of Africa and when Africa in this situation we should learn more about the different agenda of the West compared to Africa. And not in relate to evolution concepts.
They are meeting a round table in Berlin [...]
Udi Aloni: They are meeting a round table in Berlin speaking to video cameras trying to bring the change. It’s -- come on, it’s directly between organization that started in Seattle didn't work so much, but it was something in Porto Alegra in different kind of communities. It’s clear that through the political system right now because there is no any alternative ideology there is no chance. The difference between democrats and republicans, not a big deal. The Israel between the labor and the right wing not a big difference. England, we have a labor party in power, nothing happens. So, it seems that it has to be organization out of the political realm, somewhere out of the political realm. And, I hope that it is possible to create those kind of communities. And, remember, when we all get very depressed that it doesn’t work, remember that the revolution is always a surprise, never a result. And, now, I am going to my lunch vacation. I still want to say the revolution is always a surprise, never a result.
That could be so cool if everyone can choose [...]
Udi Aloni: That could be so cool if everyone can choose where he live. But, in a way, it’s irrelevant which people live in their community and all that. Definitely, they feel it right to live where you live is a place that you should think about. -- So, I don’t know if somebody should live wherever he want to live. But, that's the simple thing for a refugee to come back to his own land, to somebody who work in a factory that’s based in America why cannot move to America? Why if somebody work in The Gap for $1 a week cannot choose to be the one who run The Gap store in New York City? According -- even according to their system, they are lying to us. Even there, they don’t get people move from one place to another. And, of course, the right of people who were under colonialism to come to their motherland and live there and try the opportunity after they have been abused for hundreds of years. So, I don’t think that it said, 'hey, everyone can live wherever he want.' But, definitely, the movement of the nomad should be much more free and not be controlled by the borders that serve according to the needs of the economical reason of the one who have like the way they opened the borders for the Mexican when they need cheap labor and they close it when they don’t. It’s so obvious that it’s wrong that it’s amazing how people don’t get it, that it’s wrong. It’s so obvious that it’s unjust and that’s why sometime think that the left is naïve that it think by telling the true about how people are controlled if we show the truth to the people that people will do the right thing. It’s not work like that.
[more in another language] In Judaism there [...]
Udi Aloni: [more in another language] In Judaism there is something, sometimes in order to worship God we should break his own law. I think there are many times that we should break the law. And I think the question raised first time in Antigone that should she break the law of the not to bury her brothers and keep. It's so difficult to have a real deep conversation with all this noise here. But I think that we should think about Antigone as the first story that’s when it's the time to break the law. When the law of God, whatever God, I mean our conscious it's stronger than the law of the state. From Israel for me it's very simple. When they call you today to serve in the army, this army it's not a defense army, but an army of occupation, we should break the law. We should go to jail and said, "No, we are not joining this army." But this is not the answer I really want to give. I want to speak about really the essence, the fundamental question in that in God or in Judaism there are stories like that. There is a story in the Bible about a guy who act against the law but by that he really saved the law. And I think those are very, very important question because if we know that there are places that we have the right to break the law, we can in the big term, protect the law. But it's hard, it's hard to speak of it in this kind of environment. So let's try finalize. When they call you to serve in the army and your part in occupation you should say, "No." And if you go to jail, be proud that you went to jail. And the question of Antigone, it's always that you should be ready to take a personal responsibility while your breaking the law. And know that it's a real hard decision. It's not obvious. You have to be, you have to have the conviction. And one would ask me but if everyone would break the law, but not everyone breaks the law. Usually the right wing break the law and we try to keep without conviction.
I really feel that so many questions here [...]
Udi Aloni: I really feel that so many questions here take for granted that this, the Western discourse and I just try to fight against it. And we should question the questions sometimes. It's really put in the conflict tradition in human rights. When the big abuse of human rights is in the non-traditional society itself. So we all the time we adopting the discourse of the power and then we arguing with it. Not thinking that from the beginning there is a fault in the discourse itself. I think it's so beautiful to be with my umbrella, to see my umbrella against the sun and try to be serious about something that it is serious. But yet, I have to feel a little bit ridiculous here. Tradition against human rights--who are the biggest abusers of human rights? The West that invented the human rights. So it's time for us to understand the concept or not between us and them; between tradition and progressive. In each concept there is a way to deal with the right. And each place build together the right and the fight against the right. And there are tradition societies that before they were influenced by the West, gay could live very simply there without the control of the power. Or women in the Jewish tradition, Jewish place, were in many time better position than all the slavery of women and so-called modern societies. So if we have to end the exception of the division that they, I don't know how I should call them, the discourse, the Western discourse create. The question itself is already prejudiced. The question itself already doesn't understand the conflict with human rights, it's a women rights, it's in the Western discourse itself. And I think it's time to rethink the questions.
Democracy as it is now it's not really a [...]
Udi Aloni: Democracy as it is now it's not really a democracy or -- it is a democracy. It’s a great question. Giorgio Agamben, the philosopher speak about inside democracy itself eminently there is all the time state of emergency that destroyed it. Democracy work only by the way that it’s not performed democracy whenever its danger itself. You can take it when the America thought that communism will takeover or when they put the Japanese in the concentration camp in the war or when they are arresting now in secret jails. It's not exception to democracy. It's eminent to democracy. And, also, there is a big fight that we forget. We all the time think that freedom and justice are on the same side while really they are not always on the same side because the terms freedom and democracy many times appear for freedom to the privilege one while justice is more for the one who doesn't have. So, there is a big kind of a contradiction or fight between freedom and justice. So, the question is, I would put it like the -- the question is, how can we keep justice without giving up freedom, but how not to use this word democracy that it's all about freedom in order to take justice from too many places around the world? So, I would think that, doesn't it should be something better from democracy as we see it now? I don't show from democracy as such. Democracy as such has its own concept that has to find himself in other structure as well. But, democracy is what we call Western democracy. Definitely, should be something better for me, something that will not sacrifice justice for the freedom of the privileged. And, I don’t know there is more to say about it. But, I think it's a good start to think about it. Can I offer this better thing? No, I can't. But, are we together thinking about what is the better thing, can we become something better? I believe we can. And, the issue is that we have to remember that any radical idea become very simple only after its really happened. And, just a day before it happened, none of us believed that it's possible. So…
This is a weird definition, holy war against [...]
Udi Aloni: This is a weird definition, holy war against just war. I thought it should be just war and unjust war. It's already tried to claim that holy war is like a religious war. It's unjust compared to the war that is just. Any kind of a holy war, it's unjust. But holy war, it's not Jihad. Holy war is the war that protect capitalism. Holy war is the one who protect the fundamentalism of America. Holy war, it's a very problematic term. So the question shouldn't to define, the question should be, is there any just war? That's the question that should be asked. But I don't want to answer it because the way this question present to us it's try to create the subtext I don't like. The subtext I don't like. What is a holy war? Maybe a holy war is a war for human rights. Maybe this is a holy war. Maybe a holy war would be a war against oppression. Maybe this is a holy war. So I don't understand these terms and I don't consider why this term chosen to be as the opposite of just war. If there is a just war it's a very difficult question. I'm not a pacifist and I'm sure that we should fight when we should fight. The problem is today the West is acting with so much no good faith that it's hard for me to support any war even if it has appearance of a just war. Because you know it's always today come from bad faith. And I believe that the true independent war might be just war, but maybe there are alternative way to get there without war. But again, the question itself, like many other questions, assumed already the discourse that the ones want us to choose. The one in power, the one in the media. So you know, sometimes I think if I will just analyze the question, some of the question here, I can see already how they beat us. Because we can not think out of the box that they offer us. So let's rephrase it again, is there a just war? That should be the question. What is a holy war? I have no idea. I just know that Jihad sometimes -- they call it holy war, is the Jihad in the heart.
I wish power would give up power, I didn’t [...]
Udi Aloni: I wish power would give up power, I didn’t see it yet. Maybe, we should think about it, maybe there are example. Can it be changed in a respectable way? I don’t believe so. Does it need victims? I am not sure. It might need victims if we need a revolution. But, sometimes, an empire just declined by itself. It’s not dignity, neither victims; just suddenly falling apart. That’s maybe what will happen to America, no would be catastrophe, no epically, not a huge revolution against America. Just a system that get tired of itself, understand its wrong doing not by understanding in their mind, but the system itself will finish to function. This is the best case scenario. The worst case scenario that it will take many victims in order not to lose its power, that people will choose to destroy them with a lot of violence or that it will stay for many many more years. I have no idea. But, for the question, I want to say, sometimes, the decadence destroyed itself, nihilism destroyed itself without dignity and without victims. That will be the best case scenario I can see. I want to rephrase some really really stupid answers here and there is no way to erase it because we are already on the Internet. It’s really bothering me time and again. So, like every one hour I said, 'guys, whatever you hear from me, if there is one smart things, take it and the rest please erase it from any -- whatever website you see it on.' And, I hope there were few answers that I did some good or help some people or help myself to redefine it. Who knows? Lunch time is coming, and I am getting more and more poetic.
The answer is so obvious. But, you know, [...]
Udi Aloni: The answer is so obvious. But, you know, it's not only about profit. Yeah, of course, America profit, the weapon industry profit the fear. Well, you know, all those fears serve well capitalism. We know all this answer. But, we some fascination in terrorism. It's almost everyone profit. It work on our fear, on our fantasies, and it's scary. We all the time, this feeling that we all like those good people who look for harmony and we are not connected to our [inaudible]. This place that connect pleasure with desk drive. Terrorism fascinating us, state terrorism, then the guerilla terrorism, independence terrorism, we are so fascinated by it. So, don’t misunderstand me. I know old answer how America and the West and everyone gain from it. But, there is something there that we have to speak. The power of mythology also gain from it. We are all fascinated by it. We all -- its give us a feeling of living and we saw it in different movies how it act this fantasy. I think we can speak about club -- Fight Club or [inaudible]. It’s this place we love to play. It's this death we like to feel in order to feel the life. And, we should begin to speak with those psychoanalysis terminology sometimes to understand why we are so fucked up because all the time we think we saying the truth is so simple and it never happened like that. So, there is the economy profit. But, there is also the profit of our twisted mind, and let’s not forget it. We love to see those movies, we love the images, let’s deal with it somehow. [more in another language]. My friend said who is a terrorist? You are the terrorist. How can I be a terrorist when I live in my own land? Who is the terrorist? You are the terrorist. You killed my fathers, you stole my land. So, who is the terrorist? You are the terrorist. This is a free translation from DAM, Palestinian rappers, that remind us who is the terrorist.
Wow, that's a weird event. I think that [...]
Udi Aloni: Wow, that's a weird event. I think that corporations and governments are collaborators. It's we're to divide the powers. Who is more powerful? The relation in power is very interesting. --Excuse me. Do you have something to put in the ears? I think it's wrong to put the brand as opposite to the government. They collaborate off each other and they support each other. And the movement between one to the other doesn't really change the use of power. So I would ask more, I think, how corporation and government are reinforcing each other, or repowering each other. And more how they also trapped into the same system, they created. And also there is something we act to them, like an organic creature. While each one of them also have it's own characteristic. In a way all this answer is my first answer and it's more practice than the true answer.
Courage, there is a group of young [...]
Udi Aloni: Courage, there is a group of young anarchists who live in Tel Aviv. They are maybe 20, 25 years old. Every week, they go to small village, a Palestinian village of Belen when the Israeli government build the wall that separate between the villager and their land, between the farmers and their land, and those kids go every week there and stand in front of the non-violence demonstration of the villagers and protect them with their own body from Israeli bullets. Because they are Israelis, the solider can’t shoot them. And, those kids every week go there and go around the walls and fight with the soldier front to front and they go and they cook together with the villagers and make different kind of non-violence demonstration with the villagers. And, after a while, they create kind of a community of young Israeli Jewish anarchist from Tel Aviv and Palestinian villagers of the city of -- of the village of Belen. This is a true courage. They build the community against this wrong doing of the wall by putting their body front to protect their brothers, their neighbors, the Palestinian and they have no fear, those kids. They have no fear from nothing because they work with conviction. They don't ask question. They know that this wall is wrong, that farmers should be able to go to their land. And, by this action, day-by-day, week-by-week, they make us feel again optimistic, they make us feel proud that if those young kids without big ideology can go day-by-day protecting with their body the farmers maybe there is hope. This is for me pure courage. And, if I could dedicate all my appearance here, I would dedicate it to the Village of Belen that create this beautiful community of villagers, farmers, Palestinians with young cool anarchist, Israeli Jews from Tel Aviv. This is courage. And, let’s hope that we have more and more villagers and young people who stand together in solidarity and said no to the wrong things. Even if they might take a bullet, even if they might get arrested, they are not stopping. I know it sound dramatic, but they deserve it.
First of all, it's so obvious, how could I [...]
Udi Aloni: First of all, it's so obvious, how could I answer it. It's not. The issue is not that it's more dangerous, it's dangerous exactly like the American bomb, the French and the Israeli. The issue that we don't want another country with a nuclear bomb. Every new nuclear bomb, it's more dangerous to us. So I think that the energy should be to dismantle nuclear bomb all over. I think that we should fight against the Iranian nuclear bomb but we should force Israel to dismantle their nuclear bomb, as well, and France and America. But there is something very hypocrite, I agree on this issue. But yet, again, we should concentrate about, how could they say I wouldn't support any new power to have a nuclear bomb. But I would put my energy to fight against powers that have nuclear bombs right now. I think that Israel had to take in consideration that maybe the fact that they had nuclear bomb in the end would put them in bigger dangers. As an Israeli and a Jew, many time I think that we created kind of a country with a wall around us in the middle a nuclear bomb and we are waiting for the apocalypse. I think the Iranians make a big mistake trying to have a nuclear bomb, huge mistake. And I think for Israel, it's a big mistake to have a nuclear bomb. This bomb will not protect Israel. In the long run this bomb is with one who will destroy Israel. So I would suggest that we all put the energy to dismantle nuclear bombs, but not by the way of the Kissinger concept. That's [out of Iran], that's weird, Kissinger will hate me for that, but according to his concept, Iran should have a nuclear bomb because only if Iran will have it, Israel will have, no one will use it. But we have to think from a different place that they are not our enemies and [audio ends].
The international law is very important as a [...]
Udi Aloni: The international law is very important as a moral code. The international law is very important by existing. The international law many times is not effective, but the international law is a moral code that we can act upon. And, the international law is something we can scare the people who just doesn’t go with the -- like when officers if they come to Europe because they kill it might have one penal share when he is 90 years old might be know that he might be arrested. It’s important for us to know that there is a moral code. Of course, we will be able -- it will be much better if we are able to force it. Of course, we should find a way to force it. But, even if we don’t force it, it has to be there. It has to be there -- that we'll know what is right or wrong sometimes. And, yet, the law by itself cannot make the change. Forcing the law is impossible if the general ideology doesn’t support it. So, let’s give the international law the respect it deserves and understand it for itself it's not enough.
There is a question not only about the [...]
Udi Aloni: There is a question not only about the connection between politics and violence, but also the politics of violence. Who have the right to use violence? Who do we call terrorists? How violence control our agenda. Why do violence of the weak we call the terror, why the terror states will not call terror? I think that politics is about violence, about restrained violence. The law always use violence. So the question can we create a place out of the law? Is it possible to go to the dream of Saint Paul and create just love that is out of the law? Or maybe I would said that only in the law we can restrain violence. These questions are big questions but reducing violence is a big task. But if we need sometime violence we shouldn’t immediately reject it. If it's fight against the power. So really bother me when I heard, for example, the announcement of my brother from Palestine, I'm an Israeli. And my heart also go to his family in Gaza. That my country put it under huge siege. Put a million people in the prison. Perform violence on families. And it's not that they are pure innocents, everyone there. But they have the right to freedom. They have the right not to be collective punished. They have the right not to be abused by the violence of a state with no one defends them. So I would call to stop the violence. But I would call to stop the violence of the states first. Our responsibility is to do the first step of stopping violence. Many people ask, for example the Palestinians, why there are not go like Gandhi. Why they don't go in a non-violence demonstration. But why we never think to ask the governments, United States of Israel, why don’t you go like Gandhi first? Why you don't stop the violence first? So this is a very important question. 'Cause violence by itself, it's not the evil. But the [audio ends]
I think it's a really good question about [...]
Udi Aloni: I think it's a really good question about the hypocrisy of the West but people like us that want to reduce the greed in the West have the right to criticize also what's going on in China. Because sometimes that we're feeling that China, and I'm not the one to be sure, but there is a feeling that China took the worst of both. They serve capitalism all the way and they use a dictatorship in Marxism and communism to control the worker, instead of the other way around. Instead of taking the best of both sides. So I really think that people who enjoy capitalism, has no right to criticize China. It people who criticize the West and criticize the way they use the Third World have also the right to criticize China as a really strong country that try to be Marxist. Instead to improve their Marxism and reduce the dictatorship while keeping the just cause that Marxism tried to help. They did the opposite. The kept the dictatorship of the proletars, but without caring about the proletars. So whoever criticize America has the whole right to criticize China. I wouldn't say America, however, criticized the capitalist system has the right to criticize the way China has functioned in this system. Yet, I think that the question is very important because the hypocrisy of middle class America that's enjoying the use of cheap labor and criticize China on human right abuse and all that. It's very important that they will hear this question and understand the contradiction within their own ideology.
I mean, of -- I mean, we don’t need here to [...]
Udi Aloni: I mean, of -- I mean, we don’t need here to sit and speak about what’s colonialism. I mean, it’s obvious that there is -- I don’t know how much I can elaborate on it. I always try to find a new name for it not to use the colonialist name because the interests are a little bit different, colonialism have different faces in the past. In a way, the post-colonialism is weird because ideologically we are all against colonialism and practically we use it in a much harsh way. Also, there are societies that believed that they do things for bringing good and they really served colonialist interests. But, I would say in this post-colonialist era this is the main interest of most of the battles today around the world. It's interesting like for -- of course, that the fight against Iraq, it’s kind of a colonialist to fight because the real war if it has to be happen it's against Saudi Arabia. I mean, of course, no war has to be happen. But, this is the one that make sense. But, it's all colonialist interest. Now, the main thing that it’s not only this post-colonialism about the orientation of the other and all that. It's Europe doesn’t ready to pay the price for their old colonialism, the way they don’t like the people who come from North Africa, the way they put them as illegal workers. Sorry, Europe, it's not only America is colonialist, you should open the doors to everyone you controlled in the last 100 years. And, if its reduce your way of life, it will. Try to create a different kind of Europe, a Europe that it's not homogenic, a Europe that take in people that you abused for so many years inside your society. But, it's interesting also in Israel that they perform like colonialist, but they are not truly colonialist. So, there is a part of like the Zionist movement of a colonialist part that’s still working. But, they have also other part, that is different. So, new version of colonialism is more powerful than ever. But, we should find it a new name, a new definition because its work differently.
Freedom, and freedom is a good question [...]
Udi Aloni: Freedom, and freedom is a good question because we always many time fight for freedom. But, the freedom of who, when one freedom take other people freedom, which freedom we are speaking about, is it relative to where you live in the world? It’s not relative to where you live in the world. It’s relative which freedom fighting to which part of the world. And, I want to repeat what I said before because I think it’s time for us to understand the real conflict between justice and freedom that they are not on the same side always. And, what's happened many time when people try to fight for justice they gave up freedom totally. You saw it many of the communist parties. They understood it was the fight of liberal freedom, took the justice for many people. But, in order to bring justice, they took over the freedom. So, I thought it’s about like in Kabbalah, you know on one side the grace and the other side the justice, grace it’s kind of pure freedom and it’s clear that just freedom cannot function. But, when justice in order to bring it working over time, its create a lot of violence. So, we should fight for freedom with justice. We have to maybe reduce the freedom of the privileged one voluntarily probably in order to be able to share more faith with more people. And, there is also a inner freedom and outer freedom. But, it’s important word freedom, but also life and justice are important. Sometimes I feel … So, what do we fight for example? Are we fighting to be a free man or my freedom is over somebody else freedom? What is the freedom with within? The freedom of a nation compared to freedom of a woman, a freedom of one man, one woman, one child, freedom of ethnic group, there are many kinds of freedoms. And, they are not stand as the highest value, but one more value -- important one, but not only one.
The way the system works today definitely [...]
Udi Aloni: The way the system works today definitely our wealth it's depends the poor of the Third World. Of course, this is not the way it should be. But I think that the greed of the developed world, the West, would do everything to use any opportunity for the development countries. I think this question is a crucial because the West really doesn’t take responsibility on the way they use the Third World. And I think that the responsibility of the West after so many years of just taking, destroying, using the Third World is that for the next years. Although our act, our economic act should be to fight against the long injustice that start in the colonialism and never end. I think that, for example, when the poor woman in the Third World working for one dollar for a big corporation in America, she will always stay there because America will never give her the green card to come to work in the States if she's doing well. So they create kind of a slavery out of the center. Maybe slavery that it's more harsh because when the slavery is inside the whole, the promoters can try to fight and improve their situation. But for the Third World that are like homeless suckers, people without any rights, it's hard for them to join together to fight for their rights. So it seems like that the Third World is acting like there's a huge slave market for the West. I think that if there is one important mission to take things like that and see how this can be changed.
Why we consider, let's be real cynical, the [...]
Udi Aloni: Why we consider, let's be real cynical, the way the West see it, is one white man equal two Jewish men, equal ten Arab men equal hundred black men. And why it's like that, it's the essence of our problem. This disease called racism. The question of how we can keep the love to our community. How we can be proud of what we are. Not fight for adversities that we understood didn’t work. But how from this place, we can see the other is equal. All the discourse of the otherness has also has a sameness. It's very difficult why it's like that. It's like that, it's a fact. How we change it, this is the question. And changing it is not enough by bringing the truth to people. How we kill hundred millions in different part of the worlds are dying and we care less just because they are other to us. We have to go in ourself and begin to fight this racist monster that is living within each one of us. We shouldn't said I'm a not racist. We have to say, I know that in each one of us I know there is a racist monster, but every morning I'll wake up and I'll fight this monster. Or maybe I should kind of adopt it like a pet. Treat it nicely and then get rid of it. But it's clear and it’s obvious that the life of one is not equal to the other and it's basically, mostly on the racism. And that's our tragedy. And I think if this monster will be fought it will have to be fought day after day. It will not disappear. It's a constant fight. And I think the discourse of the [audio ends]
Maybe basically because men are stupid. I [...]
Udi Aloni: Maybe basically because men are stupid. I think the long tradition of patriarcharlic concept will be hard to break. Also there is something that repeats itself in many emancipation movements that they stop before the full achievement. It's happened the same things with proletars, with women, with minorities. And the way the women fight is maybe the most powerful one because it's 50 percent of our population. But the power always know to give enough freedom, for the emancipation to stop it's process. I think we should all learn from it. To live our life in a constant revolution. To know that it's never enough. That we can achieve more. Also, it’s not a linear thing. Women got in a better position and then there is kind of a reaction. I think also the fundamentals of the ideology of religion structure, a very patriarcharlic way of thinking. And maybe I would use the firm that Nitzke spoke about the death of God. There is a cave in India that after Buddha died, you can still see shadows and it takes thousands of years to fight the shadows. This is maybe the women rights revolution. That even though we understand that they are equal, still the shadows of the patriarcharlic society will be with us for many, many years. And our job is to continue to fight those shadows. I think we can learn from it a lot about many other issues. It's not enough to know the truth. Then we have to do a long, unconscious work to change our inner understanding. So I would try to summarize it even we all understand that women are equal. We are not acting like that.
This is a great question, and I am not sure [...]
Udi Aloni: This is a great question, and I am not sure that we are the one to answer. Yeah, I would prefer to say I prefer a non-violence resistance. Yeah, I wish it -- this resistance would make it. But, we are not the one who chose to choose the resistance of the oppressed, and probably the oppressed need different kind of resistance. If the oppressed by himself, the group will decide on a non-violence resistant and it work, it will make me much happy. But, the reason I don't want to call for it because this call used many time that we -- that the one who control the oppressor, we maintain violence by calling to the other to do a non-violence resistance. Personally, I will participate only for a non-violence resistance because I cannot be violent. So, personally, when the oppressed will have different kind of resistance, I will take part only on the non-violence one. But, I am not going to say here that you shouldn't use violence because my job is to say that we shouldn't do that. You have to understand I am speaking as American/Israeli citizen. So, my cause that we will reduce violence, the resistant will be non-violent. If we will increase violence, the resistant will choose a violent ways. I will join only to a non-resistance violence act because as one from the side of the oppressor I can have the opportunity to use, I am privileged enough to use a non-violent resistance. But, the one who are not privileged for it, what is the answer for them? It’s for them to answer, not for me. But, I think it’s very, very important question and can be in a dialog. Also, it’s important to know that if I understand there is violence resistant, it doesn’t mean I agree with it. But, we should understand where it’s coming from. So, let’s call for the oppressor to reduce violence and then it will be easier for the oppressed to choose non-violence resistance. And, let’s be sure that the one who privileged enough to speak shouldn’t choose violence. I would add also that there is different kind of violence resistance and some of them are definitely legitimate and we all agree on them that they are legitimate. There are some of them they are keep occupying territories, people have the right to fight the army a [inaudible]. The person who is not what is right and what is wrong I think the question should be what is more effective? What is the kind of resistance that will give us the freedom and justice and [audio ends].
I think first the drugs it's not only about [...]
Udi Aloni: I think first the drugs it's not only about addiction. To see this world without no kind of drugs, if I put alcohol, if I put drugs that many cultures use, it's a nightmare. All the teenage culture. The issue is not about addiction. Drug and addiction is a very terrible thing. But drug is a part of life. It's a [more in another language] of energy. It is part of our life. Who can live without wine, without alcohol, without weed. Without sometimes as a teenager to go to an ecstasy party. I think from the beginning addiction is one of the most interesting issue, what we are addicted to. An addiction is an issue to speak about human stage. But I think that those questions are not related to drugs. It's related to junkies maybe. Drugs, it's a whole different question about the needs of us to go out of ourself. It's not by mistake that we have the [Unisuse] culture and we have a [Piloni] culture. We need sometimes the drugs to go out of it. And I think those celebrations, if that without addictions, are the one who reduce suffering. And I'm not kind of a pro-drug policy, I just think that to put it in the same relationship with the question of addiction is the wrong question. About addiction, we have to deal from a whole different ways. We addict, what is our addiction also. From what [more in another language] would speak [more in another language]. What is [more in another language] and [more in another language] is kind of the need for pleasure and death drive in the same time. I think we should address, again, some psychoanalysis terminology to understand how addiction work. What is the thing that we want in the other, that we want more than the other, that we're ready to destroy the other. Like love is addiction. But it's a different [audio ends]
Who is our, definitely we have as the West [...]
Udi Aloni: Who is our, definitely we have as the West tons of responsibility. I'm sure that other people will answer it much better than I. They have more knowledge about it. From the story I heard we have much more responsibility than we imagine. But still I want to said, what is our responsibility? If we can narrow it to a real people who have true responsibility, maybe it will be easier to fight them, to change them. I'm always afraid that when you said our responsibility, in a way we give up responsibility. The big our responsibility is no responsibility. So, I think that we all should know who are the one responsible. Who are the one who doesn't fight it? Who are the one that doesn't care? Who it served in the past and don’t take responsibility. And we should go after them. But I think that the West as a group should stop to said our responsibility because I feel it make people really indifferent and make them think that that power is to strong that nothing to do against it. I think what's happened in AIDS, it's terrible but it's part of all the way the West treat Africa and probably it start with a very deep racist notion. But this will be probably different question about the racist notion of the West. The [inaudible] of the West.
Who are my heroes? I missed one question. [...]
Udi Aloni: Who are my heroes? I missed one question. One is my mother, I believe she is kind of my hero, a real human right activist that all the time fight for the true like Don Quixote and all the time had the self irony of [Cervantes] and that’s how I come to change the world with conviction in one hand and self irony to fight for the right things, but not to be righteous. I think that now the heroes is also young Israeli kids that going every day to the village of Belen and fighting against the war together, so those villagers Palestine from Belen those young kids from Tel Aviv that’s fighting together for justice. They are also kind of my heroes. Then, there are the big heroes of the past, how could I speak they are not -- this is Freud and this is Marx and this is [Hines] and this is of course, maybe Primo Levi and Walter Benjamin and again Primo Levi, this amazing person, maybe he is my hero if in the end I have to choose one, the one who were there in Auschwitz get out of Auschwitz and he wrote about Auschwitz not only somebody who bare witness, but somebody who got into this place where humanity died and in a way resurrected with his writing. So, if in the end I will have to choose one hero, I would choose Primo Levi. But, I don't believe how I missed the thing, what is fascinating me, how did it go, what kind of -- no, What moves you, how did they miss this question, ‘What moves you?” This was the one question that really -- maybe it's only question to speak about libido, sex, love [audio ends]
Again, I am not going to answer question by [...]
Udi Aloni: Again, I am not going to answer question by question here. I just can’t, because the question themself lead me to discourse that I don’t feel like belong to. Are we control, or we not control, who is the conspirator, who is the one that had the information, give us the true information. We have too much respect to information, so much faith that the right information will do to revolution, and except a few cases that it really worked, somehow we should use this place to penetrate today, underground. And may be every second question I will answer with the same motto, I decide to myself, in this event our job is to tremble the forces of the underground. In the game against the big powers we are always losing. In the games against the big powers we think, hey, so cool we can control the internet. We control nothing. Yes, we thought we can all our young gigs, viruses all that, it’s not really happening. And I wonder why? And I said, that the one that we work, or the one who is not fighting directly against the power, but is the one we create. May be if we relate to the question before – may be we can use the internet to build the new mythology, a new mythology that can bring us to a world that that we can destroy the racist hate to the other. Somehow, what scared me about all those question, that the question are predictable sometimes, and my answer is predictable sometimes. And if the answer and the question are predictable, something wrong. So, I try to come from a different angle.
First of all, I like my pet. It's not nice [...]
Udi Aloni: First of all, I like my pet. It's not nice the way you speak about them. The difference is that I don’t know, but creating technology, for short the one who created, become very stimulating people, work for many hours, and they are not fed, neither lazy. So, I think it’s not fair, neither to my pet, which is really sweet, nor to the people who create technology, they are totally neurotic. It’s almost like I said, the technology is the opposite. Technology is the race of the hysteric, discourse, it is really more, more, more, more, more, more. They are never lazy, it will never make you rest for a second. Also, what's wrong with being a little chubby. So, now I have been insulted three times, for my pet, my chubbiness, and for the neurotic people who are in the technology. Alright, now we go to draw his two hands.
So, it’s usually is the other way around. [...]
Udi Aloni: So, it’s usually is the other way around. It’s usually, it’s good in the short-term and destroyed millions of life of people in the long-term. I don’t know. The question is really the opposite question. The question is, can we protect ourself from the technology that in the short-term will make millions of millions dollar to fuel people, and in the long-term might create a huge damage for big society. I mean, I don’t want to be excused as a doubter on how much science can help people. But, I am a doubter, and not from this nostalgic, green, go back to nature stuff. It is just because the direct connection to technology and money. If technology was in a more objective hand, something that doesn’t exist and cannot exist in our structured society, I would -- might think differently.
Udi Aloni: Why not?
Science is not objective. That’s how [...]
Udi Aloni: Science is not objective. That’s how objective is. Science is in the service of interest. And I think it is very important, very important to work to it. I kind of wonder all those questions' objective.
Que sera sera, whatever will be will be. [...]
Udi Aloni: Que sera sera, whatever will be will be. Like Oscar Wilde said that there are two tragedies in life. One, when you don’t get what you want, and the other when you get what you want. So, I don’t trying to describe future, I am trying to know some ingredients that I would like to have in the future. But, future is always a surprise, future is always the kind of miracle, and I think that sometimes some of the mistakes of revolution, and the movement, and they really try to define exactly how they want the future to look, instead to leave this opening, the surprise opening. I mean the worst part in our life if we knew what our future is. So I would say, I would like to see a future without racism. I would like to see a future with solidarity. I would like to see a future that has no violence against the weak. But I don’t want to describe how I want this future, and I want to leave opening in it that let through the ingredients that we insist that we want to see there. And let the future appeared to us as a miracle, and let’s just all the time change it for the better. I know that sometimes I am using messianic terms in order to speak about the present. But it's not that I want to know how the messianic times look. I just want the messianic time to be something that in the present. [more in another language] called it Messiah To Come, [more in another language] a Gate In The History. But it has to appear as something else, as a miracle. So, I would say that’s the thing the way I would look at this. What is the future I would like to see – I would like the future to come as a miracle. I would like not to know what the future is. I want to know what is the ingredient in the future, but some of the mistake of revolutionary movement that I supported that I thought they know [audio ends]
Hey, Jerry, speak to us. Media is media is [...]
Udi Aloni: Hey, Jerry, speak to us. Media is media is media is media, it’s there. Right now, it’s there, it’s everywhere. Why it’s relevant to ask if it’s a opportunity or risk? Let’s assume it’s there, we should do the maximum use of it. I can’t see how it can reduce the [more in another language], how do you call it in English -- stop for a second -- Anyway, I would like to say that I don’t think that we can reduce the amount of media in the world. So, therefore we should use it as much as we can in order to move our information. The funny thing that even though the structure of the media give us a big opportunity to penetrate with our knowledge, somehow we have yet to gain the big corporation took over it. And now we cannot really blame them, I mean because we had the option to create a true alternatives communities that are not less powerful and I think that right now this is our job more than to try to fight the media as such. But, I am ready to open it for discussion Jerry if you have a better idea. Or why you are so much against it or how we can reduce it? Maybe by education.
I think we should concentrate on the first [...]
Udi Aloni: I think we should concentrate on the first one. Let the second one come later, you know, let’s default to it. It’s not been put on everyone the burden to save the world, to help the world. And, what we should do to each one we have – why, why something is bothering me here? Sure that everyone has a decent education. What concrete steps can we take to make sure that everyone has a decent education? All right, with that I have no problem. The Israeli, the Hebrew translation, -- So, that’s again -- what else. All right, so, I repeat it all, and I say it very clear, what concrete steps can we take to make sure that everyone has a decent education? We have to change the whole ideological structure of capitalism that makes [inaudible] these days. If they say to all the Jews stay there is no way that every person will get a decent education. We have to go back to very basic concept of solidarity between all humankind. We have to remember that this war there is -- most of the population of people who felt any right -- they cannot even join together to create demonstration like you could do in the past. So that changed the system, unfortunately. But, in the meantime, we try to [audio ends]
It’s so interesting to look around here, see [...]
Udi Aloni: It’s so interesting to look around here, see like all those people sitting together, with each one speak to his video camera. Do you think that’s what you mean by how can there be so many people yet feel so alone? Seems that everyone have something to say about loneliness, which has no connection to the amount of people. Loneliness doesn’t relate to the amount of people. May be it relates to the family. May be the fundamental feeling that you want is this loneliness. I am not sure it is not related to any amount of people. To speak about loneliness, don’t think it is the right place here, because it just has to come from a different place.
I don't think that I am an expert in any one [...]
Udi Aloni: I don't think that I am an expert in any one of the fields of the next question that I can really give any smart answer. Yet, the generic question about what is science, what is technology, it’s part of the present life, and these are things that I have few things to say. And I would say that the structure of our society, the way the world is working right now, it's all serving the one who has, it's all serving the one who control the knowledge, it's all serving the capitalist system. Yet, we've got kind of an opportunity I think to penetrate into the system because of this open environment. I'm not a big fan of – “give me the knowledge, tell me the facts, and we can change the world”. I think that under the facts and under all the information that we would be ever to develop there is a foundation of it all that is more powerful than all the facts. And yet, those tools are here with us, and yet we are sitting around the table, that it's all in the internet event. And this round table in the internet event is funded by big companies. So, what can we do? Can we get into this information? We have stories, pro and con; the big story about the Chavez issue, that because we have the camera there, and people be able to send it to the poor people of Venezuela, they change it. But the real issue for us is how we can use it. I don’t know. It’s so controlled, and yet I am not the one who believe in conspiracy theory. So we shall, I think, we just have to take it as a fact, just that's what we have, and try to live with it, and yet to know that in the big picture it serve the one we have, but we can find opening, exactly like an religion [audio ends]
My tree is oak by the way, because my name [...]
Udi Aloni: My tree is oak by the way, because my name in Hebrew is oak in a way. So, I like the oak taste in wine and whisky. And, also built in is the fruits of the oak, but definitely this is not what you ask me, but you try to see what is the thing that make be more than myself. And, that's how I try to read messianism in Judaism. For me the messiah and Judaism is not the God that becomes human. It’s also not a human that become God, but is a human that become more than the human. So, this passion, this drive that make me want to be more than myself is the drive itself. It’s not something out of the drive. It’s these things that said, yes to life in nature, it’s these things that make each one of us try to see what it means to be a messiah, what it means to be above what you can do. This is for itself. This drive is what make you want to be above myself. And, that's good because then, I can try to do it without the vanity that this is maybe very problematic character to have and yet, I didn't want the modesty that doesn't make me move forward, so the drive to be better than what I am to be something more than what I am, the drive itself is what is fascinating me.
I really think that the issue of consuming [...]
Udi Aloni: I really think that the issue of consuming is one of the biggest one and it start with a very deep psychological issues. I don’t know how we can control it, and how it reflect on us. But for sure the think there is [inaudible] the thing we should speak about is this petty object, this things that we need so much, which is out of us that we look for it, and we are ready to die for it sometimes. And more we get from it, more we liking it, more we get from it more we liking it. I don’t know how we can go without it. I think sometimes about this chocolate egg that inside there is a toy and the kids run and destroy the chocolate egg, and want the toy, and then destroy the chocolate egg and want the toy. So, even the thing we want, it’s not any more what we really want. I think we have to understand this desire, and not fight all the time against it, but somehow work with it, play with it, because there is something pleasure there, but the destruction in the same time. So, I would say that the way we buy and sell, and produce and consume, it’s what we are, and again it’s not evil by itself. There is something beautiful in the pleasure to get something small and make you feel happy. It’s the obsessity around it, it’s the way capitalism use it. It’s what put us in the place that something not even beautiful and small become so monstrous.
Because I don’t know what to answer what I [...]
Udi Aloni: Because I don’t know what to answer what I can learn from Africa, I realize it's time for me to go to Africa. And, probably when I will be in Africa, I know what I can learn from Africa. I believe that each one can learn something else from Africa but, anyway, met around this round table a beautiful person from China who became a good friend and she invited me to Africa and probably will learned a lot. So...
There is something here problematic for me [...]
Udi Aloni: There is something here problematic for me in this question. It's almost kind that we can control the future like I think all of us people want to have a better future. We should understand that our job is not really to control how this future will look. We should take care that will be more justice there, we should take care that people can live in dignity, we should care that racisism will not be there. But, we don’t have to try to imagine everything on the structure. One time, we might think that universalism is better, another time we might think that local cultures are better. And, there is a discourse that should run and nothing is really better than the other as long as human dignity is kept and justice and honesty. How exactly its fall, it's almost like a card game and we shouldn’t be afraid too much if we might lose one community, their culture or if we gain many that we lost already. It’s a dialog that’s its all the time in movement. And, sometimes, I feel from those question that they look for like one Messianic time when everything is kind of steady. But, we just have to do the right thing about the dignity of people and what happen if it will become global or regional. It will just happen, it's organic process for better and worse.
Dropping Knowledge. Each one of us is a [...]
Udi Aloni: Dropping Knowledge. Each one of us is a tiny soldier in this battle. The coward do it with a kiss, the brave one with a sword, so I will try to bring it with my movies and my lectures and going around people, others will do it through politics, some by working at their home. Who knows how. Probably, I will hire the marketing guy of Coca-Cola. I don’t know the reason, I am a little bit ironic, because there is something very naïve about this question. And yet, I want to believe in conviction. So, I think I should put my irony aside now. And, think that even an event like that can be a beginning or a continuity to millions other places that try to share this change.
I don’t know what is the most unimportant -- [...]
Udi Aloni: I don’t know what is the most unimportant -- most important. But, for me as an Israeli, I think it is the situation in Gaza Strip. There are million people who live in a prison under the occupation of my people, my country and I think that they should feel very responsible for it as well. And, while we had the war in Lebanon, we increased a lot the destruction in Gaza Strip. And, nobody really reported, the media were much more fascinated by what’s happening in Lebanon or in the same time, we use it to destroy the Gaza, destroy any kind of human help there. It’s very hard to survive there. There is no support and not only we don’t take the responsibility, this is a occupier, we have to have, according to the Geneva Accord, we are the one who really created huge destruction there. And, I think that it’s my responsibility here to tell people, “Look at Gaza, look what’s going on there. Let’s march to Gaza. Let’s stop this terrible inhuman condition that we put a million people in.” Usually I am not deal with one case, usually I always said let’s free Palestine. Let’s live together, Jews and Palestinian. But, this time it’s really, it’s a state of emergency. If the world will not do anything now, the situation might go to really, really huge human catastrophe. So, please whoever in the internet listen to it. We should help Gaza Strip against the Israeli occupation. And, I am a Israeli who speak here and trust me, it’s important. The question sometimes, I think is – it is not unreported or nobody care like, probably it could be reported. I don’t think too many people hide it, which is people getting different, that’s how the oppressor act put us in indifferent position to the suffering.
It’s the only way. There is no other way. [...]
Udi Aloni: It’s the only way. There is no other way. If there is no contradiction, there is no answer. Maybe there are more than two that contradict each other; all they do to try to have one truth, it’s a big problem that even before we start to speak about quantum theory and all that stuff.
Change your heart to look around [...]
Udi Aloni: Change your heart to look around you. Change your heart to look around you. Change your heart, look around you. [more in another language] And the other, if you cannot bend the forces above, you can try to tremble the forces of the underground. Those are two but maybe they are the same.
Is it a fair question? Is it possible? Is [...]
Udi Aloni: Is it a fair question? Is it possible? Is something can be driven now not by that? I don’t know. Again, it’s all coming to the same questions. And, sometimes, I feel that maybe there are 5 answers to 100 question. Maybe Israeli technology -- Israeli Internet would happen without the armies, really the Internet would happened without -- the porn industry is already more subversive than the army. So, I don’t know how to relate to it, how things would happen if they wouldn’t happen. The hour is the hour and we should take them from this place. This nostalgia like that there is thing that does not connect to the thing that created it, maybe it's a nice one, but it's a full speculation. Probably somebody that really is from inside the topic can create a whole fiction about it.
Who knows, maybe that will be the only one [...]
Udi Aloni: Who knows, maybe that will be the only one that survive with all the nuclear bombs around us and maybe this will be the only survival in the 21st century. Einstein said, I don't know how the third world war will look, but on the fourth world war, we’ll fight with stones. So, whatever, more seriously if we will be able not to penetrate to societies, to keep kind of innocence, I doubt it, where true penetration, the penetration of the west to every place is unbelievable. And sometimes it’s not only to gain money, sometimes it’s just for the penetration itself, kind of a weird male libido of the west, to penetrate to any virgin land they see and it’s a tragedy but you never know, miracles happen.
Listen, we cannot manufacture truth. Media [...]
Udi Aloni: Listen, we cannot manufacture truth. Media can create, they are fake. But, we have to have what [Allan Bidue] would call the fidelity to the true event. They are something that we should have conviction about that what is truth. Yes, fact, we can fabricate. But, I think that if we have our truth, different kind of fact that they will fabricate or somebody will fabricate will not change what is our truth. So, the problem that fact is about manufacturing fact, true it's about manufacturing ideology. And, we I think should have looking through everything to the truth of event that we feel that this radical can change the situation. And, in a way, I like this way that -- what you are speaking about, and I will use it for this discussion. The truth today shouldn’t be like many people in their left think has to come from the brain and knowledge and information. Our truth also has to come from a place of conviction. And, then, if even people will manufact different fact, it won’t really change too much for us. So, in this, I postpone doubt, I wouldn’t -- I think that our job is really make people have conviction in the truth and fidelity to it and not believe so much at all those conspiracy theory, can manipulate everything because the fact people are not cheating so much. Now, every American know the reason of the war to Iraq and still they don’t have the inner truth to said no to it without regarding they know the facts now.
[more in another language] to love the [...]
Udi Aloni: [more in another language] to love the stranger who lives among you. [more in another language]. Be humble in the way you walk with your God, whoever your God is. And, what can I say? I think, those two give you a lot, but also sense of humor. For God's sake. Sense of humor to be able to survive what is going through and what is going to go through. And, I am sure, I was, which is no doubt that if I have to choose again, three values, I might choose three different values. For example, pursuit for justice, solidarity to humankind. And again, humor is a way to survive life. So, when I think about it each time, I have to find three values to my – to give to my son the tool change all the time to very big topics and one will stand kind of a humor, little bit distance, little bit way to look at this from outside and have a small laugh. And, like this project here, on the one hand is very impressive, on the other hand, you can go out and think the irony there and both of them should survive in the same time.
I think the most important thing is art and [...]
Udi Aloni: I think the most important thing is art and somebody who work in art deal with many things. I think that still the most important thing in art to be art itself. And, I am not a formalist and not think that art should be for art’s sake. But, yet art each time according to the discourse of the time, of the culture, of the place, of the religion, of the [inaudible], find different reasons. Sometimes art should be about politics, sometimes art should be about decadence, sometimes art should be subversive, sometimes art should be sublime. But, really if you want to say the one thing is the most important in art, it has to stay art itself. And, to say that I wanted art itself would be what is important in art and yet not to be aesthetic concept and not kind of a formalist, not at all. Each time art will find its own topic, its own theme, its own motion, its own drive, but in the end art serve art. It's the only thing that’s constant and it doesn’t make it more important. It just makes it what it is. I wonder, because my hero Marsel Dushan, might think the opposite because he tried to take any kind of aura from art, but really if you think what his project was of Marsel Dushan was still when I go to see his art in the museum, I said, “Wow, what a beautiful art, what a beautiful piece of art.” And then, of course, I go with [this tool] weird voyage to wherever he is taking me.
No racisism. Solidarity between people, and [...]
Udi Aloni: No racisism. Solidarity between people, and a lot of surprise. This is the miracle of the future. That will keep us working, that will keep us living, that will keep us with our energy to change all the time.
I think it’s a really beautiful question [...]
Udi Aloni: I think it’s a really beautiful question because I think building mythologies in a way it's more important than showing the truth because through mythologies we can get to our deeper parts. I think that if we can take the ancient mythologies and stories from Oedipus to Antigone to Pandora Box and we find the right partner to tell our stories, we can go over the structure of inability to rethink ourself because people don't realize the power of mythologies, people -- first, the mythology was about people go to the moon, then we came to the moon. There is something -- or, some people said we never been over the moon, that it’s also fake. But, the issues that through news -- mythologies we can penetrate the matrix in a way that build so much a concept that through rationalism they have all the answer. So, I would say that I consider which kind of mythologies, but I want to say that mythologies and stories and your way is the way to go under the radar of the matrix and penetrate and try to tell a different narrative because many things that happen here it's according to which narrative has been told and which narrative we fantasize for and which mythology we try to achieve. So, it will kind of a side story, but maybe as an artist and a filmmaker I feel that it's essential. Maybe it’s the only way to go through the underground tunnel. It's like the name of my movies. In Hebrew, it’s [more in another language] but its mean forgiveness but also underground tunnels. So, I am fascinated how stories can bring it through those underground tunnels to new places and changing the structure of the way of thinking.
I don’t think it’s an issue of belief. It’s [...]
Udi Aloni: I don’t think it’s an issue of belief. It’s like the question why our fidelity is more to nationality than humanity? Again, I would say that we should find a place where they are both not contradict each other, but they are on the same side. As longer they will contradict each other and longer people will speak, 'ah, my nation is more important than my human values,' then they will choose the nation. And, it’s a weird question. Why? But, it seems that people are really attached to their nation. And, as I said before, they are attached to the nation not only more than to humanity, they are attached to the nation many time more to their own family. They send their kids to die in the war that they don’t believe, they are ready to sacrifice their own family for the nation. They -- mothers are proud -- afraid, but proud when their kids go to the army. The best of us in Israel for example lost sweet liberal little kids that really didn’t want to harm a fly and they lost them in a war because their nationality is so powerful. But, the issue, if we will understand that nationality and humanity should be on the same side, not to imagine they are no border, but there are borders that are not borders. There are places you can define yourself in your own community and still understand that this is part of humanity. If this happened, this question will not be phrased like that. And, until it’s happen, unfortunately people put fidelity to their nation above any kind of fidelity, and that’s a tragedy I think -- a true tragedy of this century, a true tragedy.
Ouch. Some people said that God is dead [...]
Udi Aloni: Ouch. Some people said that God is dead already from the beginning that all the religion is just to show him he is not dead, you know. So, who knows, if he is dead, what is his religion. And, if he is or if they are, so what is the secret in this question? I don’t know. So, I will tell you Freud told me once about a dream that the father, a dead father appeared in one of his patient dream, and all the dream the patient tried to prove the father that he is not dead already. He tried to hide from his father that he is not dead. So, in the dream he knows the father is dead and tried to hide from that he is not dead. I think a lot of the religion, it’s about trying to hide from God that he is dead or dying already. And God, what the hell he knows in this situation. Whatever, we make it. And then, in the other hand, they can come from a whole different approach because my relationship with him change everyday. And probably, there is no really religions, probably is an atheist. I could answer better for it and it should be more funny as [inaudible] way to deal with it. What if God is one of us? What if God is one of us? It’s funny I am digging so much theology in this situation. There is something in this question that make me feel when I read it first that it could be extremely funny and now I’m totally corny with it and I wonder why, I wonder what is in this context to make me treat differently, apologetically [inaudible].
How people should be defined? People don't [...]
Udi Aloni: How people should be defined? People don't choose exactly how to be defined. People are defined sometimes by the other, people sometimes defined by their own community, people defined by historical fact. It's not a choice where to be defined. To define also the Jews in a certain time they are defined by the one who hates them, then they were definded by the way they wanted to become like everyone, normal. So, if you think that you are more African, you are more African. This is a dialog between your community, it’s not -- there is true or fault there, there is not right or wrong like in a certain time the discourse create this definition. Probably if America wasn’t racist at all, Black American were just American and African-American were just American and Indian-American were just American. But, the discourse itself is creating communities. Those communities, it's not only a bad thing because it has created some kind of cultures and memories. But, why to put yourself as a White African in contradiction with a African-American? You are an African, I am a Jew, I am Israeli, I am what the situation defined me. There’s no right and wrong there. It is just how we put ourself in this world and how the discourse of this world defined us. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Well, this is huge list, this is a huge [...]
Udi Aloni: Well, this is huge list, this is a huge list. What will making -- mythologies, Oedipus, Hamlet, Hitchcock, David Lynch music, lot of music, classical music, good movies. In order to want to change the world you don’t have to see only things that speak about changing the world, you have to passion to love the world. If you love the world, if you are fascinated, even not love the world, if you are fascinated by the world, then you will try to change the world. We have to speak about this passion. You have to be fascinated by the world. And then, you will change it. So, I wouldn’t give him to read Trotsky Life, for example, but I let him read the stuff that make the world so interesting, the good stories from the bible, the good trilogies of Oedipus and Oedipus and [inaudible]. The movies that fascinated him, citizens came to see how things can be so wild done by such a young director. Things like that, things like that, things that will make him be fascinated by the world and then you step to the world and said, “Wow, hey world this is me, I am ready to change you, hey I am ready to take part.” Of course, just stop me before I could finish these things of [audio ends]
What if all Chinese people will decide to [...]
Udi Aloni: What if all Chinese people will decide to jump in the same minute on earth?
Currently video only.
Udi Aloni: Answertext will be available soon.