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Profile of April
Help wanted?
Can't we benefit from the ideas and suggestions and maybe the experiences of others? Sometimes I get to this point when I've dug absolutely as deeply as I know how and written a river and it still isn't clear.
Limits
Actually, for the most part I have kept everything to myself and I have discovered much. But sometimes at the center the web is so tangled that nothing seems clear, it's a bit like standing in front of a wall, or maybe a gate, I just don't know how to get through or if I should attempt climbing over. I believe we have access to much insight within, but we're limited. My experiences and my years haven't prepared me to know how to resolve things I believe are bigger than me.
Help!
Yes. This is when I feel I could use some help. Maybe a question from someone to help me think from another angle, maybe something that hasn't occurred to me. Maybe for someone to even say it doesn't matter; but I know it matters because it eats at me inside. Maybe someone to point to another alternative I've never considered, another way. Maybe just for someone to say it won't kill me to camp out awhile beside the wall and maybe someone else will stumble along and we can try to figure it out together; like two heads being better than one. Maybe just for someone to say it's not unusual for life to be hard to figure out. But for some reason things feel critical, like something must be done or the indecision could be fatal.
Oh well,
Kind of hoped you might know... "I know something needs to be done but I don't know what..." But I'll keep seeking. I know it won't just go away. Maybe back to the writing where this discussion began, or reading over the past writings. Since it got me here maybe it can get me out.
Or...
"introduces us to ideas we would have not encountered on our own through our own life experiences". Or even re-introduces to us ideas and experiences we HAVE encountered, experiences we may actually share but weren't paying close enough attention. De'ja vu.
frightens me?
Do you say this because of actually standing on the edge yourself somehow at this time or do you say this out of empathy?
Car Wash
My favorite movie is "Shawshank Redemption" which is unusual for someone who grew up on Cinderella and Bambi. But it is. One day Andy finds himself on a little cot facing a wall; well it's worse than that. He's INSIDE the wall(s). Even though he was unjustly imprisoned, he still is able to wear this 'protective coating that seems to shield him from this place'. Anyway, you know the story. He focuses on the library and he uses his other talents and he patiently scoops away at the wall and his efforts are hidden underneath a girlie poster. (who'd ever think to look behind there?) But around the time the tunneling project is completed the vibrant young man who finally learns to read is killed by the hypocritical Bible-thumping jailer. (Someone once told me to think of EVERY element of a dream being you. They said, "Whose mind is dreaming?") So Andy's in solitary confinement again for finally speaking out against the warden's crap and he learns about the kid's death. It's the last straw and he escapes very soon thereafter by crawling through 500 yards of shit -- and coming out clean on the other side. He's greeted by this enormous rainstorm that purges his soul. So the wall... I read a poets words once that said, "If you need me like I know I need you there's just one thing I'll ask you to do; take my hand and lead me to hole in your garden wall and pull me through." I am against the wall, inside the wall, even. But there's a hole in the wall, in fact, it's a hole I dug myself I had just couldn't get to it for awhile because I was in solitary confinement. But I'm crawling through it even though its a bit claustraphobic in there; and the shit stinks.... But the rain is there on the other side to wash it all away. Hope you find the hole in the garden wall, too.
Hold your horses...
Patience is one of the hardest things to learn, but it could mean the difference between life and death.
Knots
It never ceases to amaze me where solutions can come from. Often they seem to come from what poses as foolishness.
Generalist
That's a bit of a different but reasonable point of view, esp regarding the flood. When you say you are a "generalist" on many subjects, what do you mean by that? Shades of gray rather than black and white? And would you please offer a few more examples of this?
created...
The reason I used that term wasn't really related as much to death as humans have to face it, but that nature seems to have imbeded significantly shorter lifespans into the creatures around us who share our enviornment. I was meaning their deaths.... the butterfly, a dog, a cat, a bunny... the creatures we get attached to and invariably have to mourn their passing. Is it possible that having to witness this loss makes humans appreciate their greater lifespan and perhaps focus on using it well; not choosing to experience it always in pain.
Christianity
Do you find it necessary to commune with others who share your feelings toward Christianity or do you worship privately? If you share your beliefs with others, how did you find such?
Sharing...
Since you say you would like to meet with others, doesn't not doing so leave you feeling lonely. I mean, something so important to you as a person, something you've obviously meditated a great deal on, something that's actually lead you to learn how to 'relate to yourself' and to understand the world around you better; how do you keep it to yourself and and not share it with others? Do you seek others to share your view with, for example, this cite, or have you simply accepted it as a private affair and are ok with that? It seems very lonely.
History
You said you have a particular interest in certain times in history. Why 'certain times'? Do they help you understand now? Will you share these thoughts regarding history, please.
Subject
"...in many cases have explored the historical backround, but always with a focus on the original subject." What is the "original subject"?
Truth
So, I guess my original question remains the same... What do you do about it? Just live in frustration? Do you write about it, try to find an ear, or just "struggle for othe legal tender" like in the song, The Pretender? And surely, somewhere, there must be SOMEONE who also values truth. SOMEONE. There has to be! I think that there are very definite truths. I used to think that I knew them, but circumstances and inconsistencies led me to question some that I once held to very strongly. This, I suppose, is the basis for this entire discussion. I just can't give up trying to figure out what is really right. I think there is right and wrong. I know very well there are gray areas, but I believe there is a baseline of justice in nature, human and otherwise, and I think inwardly everyone senses it has to be.
Foreigners
The wording of your question is very helpful. Thanks. What I know to be truth I am not questioning. I think what I am questioning is who are the keepers of the truths. And it makes me wonder if there really is such. I remember reading recently that during the innauguration prayer for Solomon's temple he asked that whoever prayed in faith toward the temple, whether it be the representative of the nation as a whole or even some foreigner in another land, that all such prayers would be heard. That meant that the foreigner or the alien resident could be heard even if he was not at the time a part of the nation of Israel. I suppose that principle is a 'truth' that can help me now.
Einstein...
"Human beings, vegetables or Cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance, by an invisible player." And when we are resisting 'the dance, the tune, the invisible player', when we think we are the orchaestrator, the dance is forced and can become ugly. When we recognize we are on stage, even if it is a tragedy, and follow the director, life can be beautiful again.
"the law"
And still I think if change seems essential you have to fight madly for it even if it is on you own property. I've found that "the law" doesn't always correspond with the constituion, thus the Supreme Court; to fight the laws with the constitution. I don't think change is easy even on my own property. It's also a reason why picking my battles is so important, only something really worth the war... Things like freedom, sanity, love, peace, truth...
Thanks a lot...
That's one thing I've accomplished, when I'm gone, for sure I've accomplished being despised.... Sometimes I think it's like Cordelia in King Lear, my absence is more powerful than my presence... Yeah, they may remember.
Education and Spirituality
I once had a conversation with a chemical engineering professor at a University who said that he believed 'higher education' destroyed spirituality in students. Do you agree? Have you seen this? And if so, why do you believe it is the case? And if you disagree, please explain your feelings. So what kind of education has the most useful and long-lasting value? And can the young even learn; sometimes don't we have to experience life's 'education' before we can learn?
"Battle" for peace?
Is it the same? Because we must battle for peace. Peace is always something that the enemy tries to snatch, to steal. Maybe a massacre with literal weapons could be considered a lie; but we MUST battle to keep peace!
Duck!
You know, maybe sometimes it takes strength to have the humility to duck down to survive. Stupidity is to stand there and dare danger when you could let it move on past.
Prism
But does that necessarily make life UGLY? You can hold the crystal to the light and though altered, it's much more beautiful than before.
God of choice
But will the god accept this worship? What if you like this god best, but you find out later he doesn't like you... you fire him and find another one?
Effort
This amazes me constantly; the effort artists are willing to invest in their craft. I love listening to live music and had the privilege to hear two concerts just this weekend. What struck me was the effort they put forth to acquire the equipment, transport it, set it up, break it down; transport it back to wherever it is they go... And they just sing and play their very guts out! And I wonder their motivation. Is it to give to others? Is it the feeling their own creativity brings to them? It's incredible to me - like a sunset - something that can only be so briefly enjoyed and it's gone, but the memory makes it live... This effort and generosity is mysterious to me.
More, please....
"Lost", please elaborate on what you meant by this. Why did this quote strike meaning in you? Please give an example of what you mean. What art have you witnessed as "a lie" that helped you see "truth"?
Next level
So how do we achieve another "level of thinking" that will help us arrive at a solution? Especially if the "disease" is one of personal misdirection that causes chronic pain.
Native Americans
I've often felt disturbed by the land stolen from the Native Americans and they are certainly endangered especially in comparison the their population beforehand. But I've never thought of this relative to the food grown on their soil.
Grownups
Some responsibility lies with the child when it becomes an adult. Maybe its latent interests were thrust aside by the parents insistence on a particular course. But if the interests and desires are strong enough, then adulthood will bring these back to the surface. Now, no longer being a child, the person can make his or her own decisions regarding what to pursure. But they just need to be courageous enough now to fight for what they really want.
Race
Thank you!! And whoever pulled this up from the archives, too. Yes, race is so vague or unreliable, whatever... When people see me or I fill out a form I put "white". But I really am just an American mutt. As bad as any mixed breed dog you ever saw. My family is mixed with English, French, Irish, Native American, Black, Scottish, Southern... and who knows what else. People often ask what I am, Italian, Spanish, Armenian... (I've heard every one it seems).... and I always tell them I'm just an "American mutt"; because wasn't it created as a melting pot anyway?
You yourself said it...
Learning "that others have different ideas and beliefs and learning not to fight about it" seems to me the very key to living together in peace as a family. 'Foolish visionaries' like Jesus and Ghandi felt there were basic philosophies or 'principles' if you want to call it that, which would help humans coexist peacefully. Diversity doesn't HAVE to mean fighting about it.
Understanding
Are we born with no imagination because we are too young to understand it? Or with no cognitive ability? What about a conscience? It seems to me that most have at least a vague feeling of right or wrong; and eventually what they agree with or not; what they live around, what they see, the things they suffer; these seem to me to be what more likely turn them AWAY from ethics; teaching them to ignore the conscience. Inclinations may be there from the beginning for "bad", but something other than strict outside rules seems to tame that to a degree in the very young. How many times on a playground do you hear someone yell, "That's not fair!"?
Hell fear
There was a terminally ill acquaintance who was so afraid of what her death would bring because of this hellfire idea that though she was exhausted and in much pain refused to close her eyes; guess she thought she wouldn't die if she didn't sleep. She died with her frightened eyes wide opened. I think this is the cruel result of such teachings.
Whose soul?
What I don't get is how you can believe you've got some kind of access to the souls of others just because you feel in touch with your own and that somehow your self-expression will reveal the self of another. When this happens with art it seems more a case of sharing an element of similarity with the artist rather than his performing his 'job to re-direct them to their souls.' Or is it? Maybe some art is divine and is designed by someone even greater than the artist; but even so it wouldn't achieve the goal of reintroducing someone to their self because of the self of the vehicle artist. Or would it? Maybe the artist is actually a god or a demi-god wanting to connect with a human through art. Then maybe so.
On and On
This idea of treating the symptoms you mention reminds me of something my mother-in-law used to say when she saw this in her own quest for a cure: "Why do you think they call it a "practice".
Pick your poison
I like this philosophy. Should French fries be limited to those of normal weight?
Take your places.
It's interesting that you addressed this question from the perspective of the "place" or "role" in a relationship. And it makes sense. This really does seem to be the bottom of much conflict. Then perhaps attempting to clarify the expectations of each reagarding their role and their feelings toward that of the other may help to at least identify the confllict even if it cannot be resolved. Maybe such a discussion could help the couple rethink their position? Or maybe to see where they have been trying to control the other?
Soul and life.
Unless knowledge is used in wisdom, life will not be very successful and the soul will not be satisfied.
Uninterrupted happiness?
If happiness forever comes from uniting with God, how can you genuinely make others happy? Wouldn't that only come from their own relationship with God rather than anything another human could do? Do you think someone who has a close relationship with God and who experiences deep sadness at times in life has temporarily moved away from God in his life? And is it possible to have happiness forever and sadness at the same time?
Which is it?
But your question was. "Can anybody say heartily that he IS happy...and whether it will remain forever." You say here that happiness "WILL BE forever..." This is different. I think the FUTURE will probably bring this perennial happiness, this "bliss," as you say. But the present seems to offer to most of us something quite different. And the experiences now are mostly mixed rather than a constant "flow of happiness." So then, back to the originial question, "Can you say heartily that you ARE happy...and that this present happy state will remain forever?"
1, 2, 3...
Are you certain this is the correct order? Isn't it true that "life" is actually perpetuated by the sperm rather than the egg?
Up close and personal.
Good reminder. "You cannot substitute electronic words for meaningful lives enriched by relationships and information." Suppose this is the test of real selflessness. Typing to faceless others is the easy part...
Look under the rock.
Incredible insight!! This is a message that could certainly benefit mankind. But it seems mostly persons would have to look honestly at their personal motives for accumulating wealth. Doesn't seem this is something that would ever be accepted on a large-scale basis. "One person at a time" as you suggested on another post. Perhaps individual actions here will speak louder than words; but still without self-promotion.
Another possibility?
Your thoughts are well taken and sensible. Kaitlnruff's idea that, "Everything we do to limit the wealth/success/wellbeing of others takes away from what we would be able to achieve as a wealthy species on a well-managed planet," I believe is important, too. I don't believe lazy people who refuse to work should be supported by others or that their plight is the fault of the wealthy. But if the wealthy appreciate the efforts of those who are poor and who are trying to do their best, they could perhaps use this wealth as a benefit. Of course the education and circumstances of wealthy and poor are not equal and deserve appropriate compensation. But if the wealthy would acknowledge the efforts of the less fortunate by perhaps rewarding the hard work of their gardeners, or the server who takes care of them in a restaurant, or the bus boy and diswasher in their restaurants, or those who assit them in manual labor, rather than trying to get these services at the very cheapest, then they may feel more personal satisfaction and be contributing to the welfare of those hard workers without the same opportunities. However, if greed is the motivating force behind their wealth, they will likely hold on to every penny rather than being generous. Though their endeavors may ultimately contribute to the overall economy, they may lose the opportunity to contribute on a more personal, close-to-home level.
Contrast.
I agree that broad sweeping statements are inappropriate. And I have seen both sides to this story. One very wealthy man I worked for treated his employees with a great deal of disrespect, verbally abused them and left quite collection of bodeis in his wake. He was willing to play the lottery with OSHA rather than make the changes to protect his employees. And he always seemed on the verge of a heart attack. Another man was also very wealthy, but was of a more generous nature and seemed to feel a responsibility toward the society he contributed to. He did a great deal of volunteer work and relief work for disasters. He would even take employees with him on his volunteer missions and pay their transporation and salaries as usual so as to accompish the work. He lived a comfortable life and also spent a good deal of time on his golf game and other pursuits. But he in comparison with the other boss seemed quite happy and healthy.
Teacher and pupil.
Do you really believe there is no difference between the teacher and the pupil?
Respect.
"Respect to all even when you find out that innocence does not exist." Actually, this is an important value I think ADULTS should be taught!!
Visible God?
"She impart her bodily enjyms, minerals, flesh, blood, and everything that is necessary for human body." But this is not because of her conscious gift to the child; it has been programed into her body. Perhaps you are fortunate enough to exist in a culture where mothers are always loving, generous, and unselfish. But those on other continents find that far too many mothers abandon and abuse their children.
About the same.
Probably about the same amount on all the slow food at the grocery store.
Anarcho-primitivism
Excellent. And to me the conversation between you and Zotlynn on Anarcho-primitivism is a good example. It's something I have absolutely no knowledge of at all except on this website and from your conversation. And as I read the depth of the issue, the tangled mess, even I start feeling anxiety. And I can feel the pain of those who feel strongly about these matters. This increase of knowledge has certainly increased pain and my own ignorance was bliss.
I bought the cd.
Your conviction made me quite curious. I like the music. But my insight helps me understand that we are all individuals.
Earth murder.
Years ago I read a comentary on the process (I think it took a thousand years or so) which led to Easter Island becoming uninhabitable. Very disturbing. There certainly can come a time when the last tree is cut and nothing is left to support us. (Did the island ever revive?) Will you please tell me of the past five "mass extinctions" you refer to?
Gravity?
Isn't there tremendous gravity in black holes? And since you use the word vacuum, it puts me in mind of vacuum cleaners; maybe they mimic black holes in a sense...
Thank you.
I find this subject fascinating. I am very curious about this mass inside which has this incredible force. Guess we'll never know.
Important questions
To me these are very important questions and something I have been struggling with recently; but I don't have the answers. Sometimes when we post questions we already have our own ideas but are curious what others think. Please express your thoughts on your questions; it may help me.
Criteria
If the criteria for the historical accuracy of writings is confirming geographical locations, then certainly the Bible would have to be proven true. It mentions Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome, Jerusalem, Assyria, Syria, Persia, etc...
Or...
Wonder what Sir Issac Newton THOUGHT when the apple fell on his head... Perhaps he REASONED that something was influencing that action.
Thoughts.
Are not even our thoughts words? It is said that those who learn a new language and are settled into a new culture will in time begin to think in the new language; words of another tongue. in fact, if were to be able to communicate messages telepathically would not even feelings consist of words: "I hate you," "I love you," "I want you," "Who are you really?"....
Oops...sorry.
I left out a WORD... "In fact, if WE were to be able to communicate messages telepathically..."
One of many.
I must agree with you that this is a great lie. And many, many have bought into it.
Yes.
Good answer. And this applies to women as well. Feelings can be maddeningly (not sure if that's a word) frustrating!
The mind.
This causes me to reflect on the human mind. Sometimes thoughts seem to collapse into the black hole of the mind where Space and Time have no meaning. Maybe our own thought processes mirror black holes. Is a mind mass?
Language barrier?
Excellent questions. If we were able to communicate telepathically, I believe the meanings like those above wouldn't be limiited by language, but still each would probably translate and process the meaning in words; the words of their own tongue.
The mind?
Hi Doc, please tell me what you think about the idea of the mind mirroring black holes. (See my earlier comment today.)
Sanity.
In the Gospel writings of Christ's life at least once it is reported that his family said, "He has gone out of his mind." Good observation.
Heart of the mind.
Since the mass that produces the gravitational pull in black holes is the force, do you think there is a sort of 'core' in the mind that all of these thoughts and memories attach to; some sort of a concrete 'self'?
True.
Your observation seems to be true to me. Why do you think it is that women are more prone to this than men? In the animal world often it is the male who is trying to attract the female rather than the other way around.
Mammalian signal of availability?
Except... this fails to explain why we will also choose to wear FLAT shoes that hurt our feet. This idea causes me, too, to ponder why it is that men will complain about feeling "choked" and continue to wear neckties.
Friendship.
In reviewing this exchange, I wondered how it is that a person is able to maintain a friendship when this is the criteria. ("I have a friend to whom the truth is secondary to a good story, and I just do not feel the need to confront him with the truth.") Is the friendship still satisfying in that there are other traits in this person you admire and respect? It made me consider some acquaintances of my own; I have a tendency to burn bridges.
Against the law.
Just because something is unjustifable or illegal does not prevent it from happening.
Pipe dream?
Did not the tribes of the Native Americans also war against the others? And even though that civilization seems to us to have been a peaceful one, unfortunately they did not live in a WORLD without greed and poverty; thus the present circumstances. Has mankind's history EVER seen such a thing?
Integrity.
Though your grades have fallen, has your decision to stop cheating made you feel more at peace or have more self-esteem? Would you tell those coming after you that it was worth it? What made you decide to stop? Just curious...
Grade vs. knowledge.
Is the grade the objective of the CLASS or does it become the objective of the STUDENT rather than the obtaining of knowledge? I thought a grade was a reflection of knowledge gained through a class. If a person cheats to get the grade rather than focus on knowledge, how does the 'education' serve him?
Stress.
Since you say that now you hang out with your friends more and engage in more activities (not study more); if you really wanted to pursue after the grade by your own efforts, you could probably get it. Guess you were able to figure out what was most important to you; what you really wanted. Sometimes we really are happier with a simpler life. You mention others flaunting their success... I wonder how many of us would be doing something different if competition wasn't a factor. Living "on the outskirts of society" in this way can actually be much less stressful.
Why?
Another factor just occurred to me. Possibly things seem distorted because rather than simply relate the facts of history (ie. 'this nation under this leader declared war on this country in this year...'), the reporter attempts to explain the motive for the event. Since the motivation and thinking of the parties involved actually died with the original participants, trying to discern the reasons may explain the deviations. Perhaps "why" is the wild card. Even if personal writings of the parties involved exist, their true motivation may not always be admitted.
Sad commentary.
This is disheartening to me. If our society and its future generations are largely led by those with higher education, how will this practice aid the betterment of humankind? It sounds as though this is simply accepted now as the norm and there is no sense of it being unethical. Do you feel that most employers would still want this person to work for them if they actually knew the degree was obtained through deception? If this has become a person's means for achieving goals, will anything prevent them from engaging in dishonest business practices or dishonesty in relationships with others? Or has what constitutes "dishonesty" also become merely a matter of opinion? It would be very disturbing for me to learn that such a person was educating my child or handling my finances.
Land owners.
"To own land and to have property is to have status, to have an identity, and to recieve a sense of recognition." What, then, is the position of millions of apartment-dwellers throughout the world?
Extra bones...
"They had all the evidence they needed to talk about the Cyclops... The extra bones resembled nothing so much as the bones of a bird's wing. And so they discovered Griffins." Sound like some of the antics of certain more recent paleontologists that we studied in public school....
Just be patient.
Bruises may thicken skin, but only after awhile. Initially, even tough skin is more sensitive. When they've had time to recover from the pummeling they may come back and try again.
Goodwill.
Since none of the original contributors seem to have remained with this forum, does that suggest all were driven by ego except one? In the short time I have been observing these conversations, most contributors seem to come with curiosity, concern and a passion for their ideas. Many betray a lack of thorough knowledge of the subject at hand. (As a contributor recently reminded us, we all suffer from ignorance.) However, individuals are more likely to be taught, corrected, or persuaded if dialogue is presented in a spirit of goodwill. While withholding praise and disagreement are one thing, demeaning and insults are quite another.
Moral?
You have called to mind an interesting concept. If "moral" changes, is it really moral? Since moral is basically a standard of right behavior, it seems it should not be subject to flux. However, definitions also provide for it to mean 'conforming to a standard of right and wrong.' In this case, the way the social wind blows may, in fact, have the ability to change it. So is "morality" subjective?
Beauty.
One of the most amazing feelings I've ever experienced is resting by the ocean under a vast sky and feeling really small. It felt exceptionally beautiful.
Indulge me a tangent....
Please consider looking on a personal, more psychological level for reasons you find certain men appealing rather than just the examples of the animals. There was dialogue in the early spring where a few contributors were discussing doves and hawks... I say this because humans do have a more developed brain than the animals and our choices if based a little more on reason and understanding rather than instinctual desire may lead to greater success (happiness) in life. Your comments strike a chord in me because of certain experiences in my own life. I have learned that "Mr. Right" who is always looking in the other direction, (especially if he is proving his value by his possession or trumpeting his achievements) may actually turn out to be the most notorious "Mr. Wrong" you've ever met. If you have to chase after a man and turn yourself in loops to either get him to notice you or to be pleased with you, please beware. You may be showing that you are someone who can be controlled and maybe are even subconsciously attracted to this control. I pursued my first husband relentlessly then continued to do so for many years inside the marriage before I was exhausted and near suicide. The "Mr. Wrongs" who were the first to speak, actually turned out to be the genuinely kind men who didn't need women to sacrifice and beg for their attention. The respect for women which will allow a man to speak first, even if he is nervous, will go much further toward a good relationship than the distant aloofness we see in the James Bonds. I have yet to see such a man transformed into a genuinely kind person just because of the love of the right woman. You will not be able to change such a man just because you want him so badly. But, there are times we may only learn how to make wise choices because we have had to suffer through the consequences of hurtful ones. (Please see my post "Consequences", July 19.)
Unconditional love.
I once read a discussion of this type of love as providing what would be good and beneficial toward another whether that person appeared to deserve it or not. Sort of like the "golden rule" idea. So I suppose this type of love can be developed, but it is unlikely to come without concentrated effort and thought. For example, what is 'good and beneficial' may not be a handout, maybe it is work or a ride to the employment office. And it may not be bestowing trust when the person is untrustworthy. It may not even be letting them borrow your car if theirs was impounded because of drunk driving. Another good reminder is that unconditional and selfless love would not be ruled by sentimentality.
Just curious.
Since you say that sometimes you think you've been here too long, does that mean you question the value of this forum? In your opinion, what was it designed to accomplish?
Anarchy.
Please let me ask you if you have ever lived in an area driven by anarchy. With no government or law and order at all, wouldn't it be like a world filled with gangs? Though never being actually in such an environment, I have heard numerous reports of lands experiencing this blight. Isn't this the atmosphere which promotes civil unrest and genocide. Please describe the benefits anarchy would bring to a nation. Truly, this idea makes me shudder.
WORLD without greed.....
The question at hand refers to a WORLD without greed or poverty. My point regarding the Native Americans is that although their own surrounding civilization may have been more peaceful or equalized than ours today, the WORLD they lived in at the time (meaning the planet with all of its varying systems) was not a WORLD without greed and poverty; "thus their present" circumstances. That WORLD they lived in actually led to their demise, not their own culture. This cullture certainly seems to have been a peaceful one, unfortunately it did not encompass the WORLD.
On second thought....
I stand corrected. The discussion is actually about whether the absence of greed may cure poverty. In this context it does seem that the society of the Native Americans achieved this. My question is actually whether we will ever be able to rid the world of greed...
Utopia.
This idea certainly sounds utopian and would be great. But the reality seems to be that with the absence of government, even those who are not hardened lawbreakers push the envelope. Take for example the traffic laws. What if there were no stop lights, no speed limits, no laws against driving under the influence, no lines on the pavement, no school zones, no vehicle registrations, no required insurance on vehicles, or car safety regulations. The absence of this one element of government would lead to a great deal of difficulty. Except if the society had no vehicles; but who could make such a law if there is no government? I agree with your idea that such a society would be wonderful, but who has the power to teach mankind to respect the other and live for the common good? And with anarchy would anyone be willing to undergo such training? They certainly could not be required by law to do so. BTW, my dictionary defines anarchy as, "A social structure without government or law and order; utter confusion."
Green movement.
This green movement is now our Ruler and its adherents the arm of The Law. Whether we submit willingly, by force, through peer pressure, or by guilt, is this not a form of governance; dictating to us what is "right" and "wrong" behavior toward the planet? Good government benefits mankind.
Beauty.
Isn't it amazing that we will risk our lives and our resources for a view? I have chosen to live on the coast and enjoy my surroundings very much even though I've had my share of dodging hurricanes. This certainly well demonstrates the human affinity for beauty.
Word pictures.
"Our experience is more about feeling and intuition", and yet for me these are always translated into words as soon as I am aware of them. ("I feel sad" or "How peaceful" or "I think you are trying to manipulate me.") Perhaps this experience is different with different people. Although as Doc said, there is likely that split second of thought or feeling that occurs before the 'translation.' Even my dreams take place in words. Whenever I see a scene in my mind, it is always described to me in word pictures as quickly as I perceive it. In fact, even color is always labeled by a word in my perception. (Maybe it says red; maybe it says blood.) When I walk by the ocean the gulls and the water are perceived immediately by those terms and it seems as quickly a poem or a quotation will come to my mind that embodies their presence. In my consciousness, experience is only complete with words. And yet, how do you suppose a newborn infant perceives experience? I wonder if language begins to take form in the womb.
Criminal chemicals.
Actually, I was thinking about an incidence of the dumping of dangerous chemicals on the rurual roadsides of North Carolina in the late 70s. The persons responsible chose this way out to avoid the cost of proper disposal, they didn't live in the area, and evidently believed the impact would be far enough down the road that they would not be detected. Fortunately they were discovered and prosecuted before they had the chance to die and were forced to clean up the mess. But I'm afraid far more of these criminals escape than are detected.
Starting over.
Interesting dialogue of Aug. '06 question. Your answer applies more closely to my question (fire and toolmaking) than most of the others. I was wondering if each of us could bring something into a new society what we might come up with without being repetitive and how it might jumpstart everything successfully.
Literature.
Among the arts I put more value on literature. Literature can provide a glimpse of the other arts. I can hear the voices of a play, see the painting of a sunset, hear the music of the breeze or the ocean, I can see the birds in flight and the blossoms on the trees, I can feel the passion and ecstasy of lovers, and I can taste fresh waters. If I had to choose one work of literature to bring into the next civilization it would have to be the Bible. Its metaphors and legends provide very valuable lessons that could steer toward cooperation and success. I especially appreciate the wisdom in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes that focuses on the importance of human relations and the vanity of a life spent solely in the pursuit of wealth or social status. Not to be ignored is a superb love story…
Public phone calls.
Hi ClemsLe. Just curious.... What impression, if any, would you form of someone who wouldn't take calls in public
Escape.
Is it also possible that people who immigrate to another country actually prefer to escape their former culture rather than preserve it? Maybe future generations would like to have a connection to their roots, while the parents placed little value on it.
Emperors.
We could excuse ourselves from the party, which may make us the next 'guest of the bull.' But it could be worth not giving tacit support to the inhumanities. The only real help we could provide the victims when the emperor himself is the perpetrator would be to report the crime to someone higher in station with power to bring the emperor to justice. Who would that be?
Babel.
Thanks, I had hoped there was something like this available. I tried it with this one and still can't really make sense of it. I'm definitely an American!
How to?
So how do you think you could actually do this in a practical way in view of the context of the original idea? Is this a legend or an actual matter or history? And if you were there, how would you fight it? (This is not a challenge; I mean this sincerely.)
Examined lives.
To complement your Socrates quote, I once read, "The examined life is no picnic..." Both true.
Mind pictures.
I love it... and I can see it in my mind. Once I was on St. Lucia and there was a sudden cloudburst.. All the children were walking home from school in their uniforms. And I saw these little girls standing under a banana plant holding the giant leaves over their heads like umbrellas. It was something I'll never forget.
Indigo checkerboard...
You must have read the same article.... Sometimes twins born with orange and emerald polkadots do grow up to be blonde, I guess. Or perhaps one may, while the other may remain polkadotted.....
Thanks for the reference...
Thanks for the website! It was perfect. The ones I saw must have been altocumulus and altostratus that day, I never remember seeing those exact ones before. I had only heard of cirrus, stratus, cumulus and cumulonimbus; but it makes sense there would be those in-between.
Quiet.
Hi Doc. It has been very quiet here for the past few days. You said this is the norm. Maybe, too, one reason people lose interest is that they expected somehow that the contributions here would actually solve world problems rather than discuss them.
Encore.
Hey Andrew, thought you'd like to know that the altocumulus clouds were back out by the shore this morning.
Clouds and patience...
Today on my beachwalk I tried to notice the layers of the clouds; it does add another dimension to be able to think of it that way. And I could see their separate movements. Looked for the dripping cotton balls, but what I saw today would be forcing it. You'll probably never see them again. It's nice that we have mental museums for those paintings; and nice when someone shares them. On the matter of patience here in the forum... Frankly, I feel patience is one of the most difficult qualities to develop. There's a proverb that equates impatience with a haughty attitude. What are your feelings on the relationship between patience and humility?
Mythology
This week I toured a sculpture garden and was impressed with how many of the works have mythological themes. The docent told some of the stories along the way. I found it fascinating. Especially I wondered whether, as there is some truth in legend, there may also be some actual truth or history in mythology. Are there any historical events that can be equated with mythologies? For some reason Diana seems to hold an especially prominent place in hearts of artists. The story of Persephone also intrigued me. And I wondered whose life may have originally inspired the story of Narcissis.
Recycled idea.
Perhaps some of us have developed a sort of cynical attitude toward the 'new' movement. It is so much a recycling of the 'ecology' and 'conservation' movement of the late 60s and early 70s. We were in a crisis then, too. Even all of the elementary students at that time were in competition for the best 'ecology' posters to try to bring attention to the need for change. It was actually, from my perspective, a much more active movement than the one now. Not so much a matter of buying the right product as taking a personal responsibility toward the evnviornment. At that time I remember litter on the highways was an incredibly huge problem. It seemed that everyone would throw their fast food bags out of their car windows, even. Speed limits on the highways had been increased to 70. Then we were faced with the 'gas crisis' when the price of fuel soared to 50 cents. Throughout the country the speed limits were decreased to 55 to save gas. But I think what many did at that time to turn things around a bit was stop littering and pick up trash wherever it was found.... Then for some reason, in the 80s there was no longer any talk of this; things went back somewhat to the way they were before. But what we learned did make an impression. It amazes me that the speed limits rose again, it made it appear as though there never really was a 'gas crisis' at all... I still like to drive 55. One contributor suggested we "follow the money." There seems to be some wisdom in that.
License.
Hello 09667aco: Interesting thoughts. The only thing I might add is that maybe conscience would be a pre-determining factor in an individual's 'exercise' of free will, rather than the "right to free will." To me, free will gives us the choice. For example, with a license I have the right to drive my car, but because of this awful storm outside today and the danger it imposes, I may choose not to exercise that right. I still have the right whether I exercise it or not. Even though my better judgment tells me to stay inside, I can always override that and do what I want to. Perhaps the role of conscience is to guide us to the wisest, most beneficial choices within the realm of free will.
Thanks for dropping.
Zotlynn: Your explanation helped very much to answer my questions. Originally I had posted that I had read a report that some cloned animals had different markings than their donors. The response I received likened clones to identical twins and any differences as something to be dismissed. That is the reason I then posted a question asking if twins are clones. I know this is not the case, however, I needed some information that could possibly explain the differences I had read about. "Clones are presumed to be genetically identical, not accounting for those damaged or miscopied DNA sequences." This expression helped me to see that there are factors that can account for deviations from the original. I appreciate your response. Certainly there is a mountain of information out there to wade through and possibly I may be able to eventually stumble across something that may satisfy my question, but I appreciate that you did not require that of me. It seems that the benefit of "Dropping Knowledge" is that if someone has a question and another contributor happens to have the knowledge to answer it, they will graciously "drop" that knowledge. Thank you.
Earth-shaking.
Quite comprehensive, I must say... Mostly there was a curiosity as to the effect taxation as any other business would have on the world economy. You have demonstrated it would be much more far-reaching than that.
Thanks for responding.
When I asked the question, I was thinking about being in a public place like a store or a restaurant and someone gets a mobile call and sits there having a loud conversation and everybody around them seems to speak lower, like they can't disturb the person on the phone. Or the person in the store walks around from rack to rack talking on the phone. It is so refreshing at times like that to see someone who gets a call just turn off the phone, or shorten the conversation, or even take the call outside. Maybe it's just politeness and I have a tendency to view the person with more respect, it seems more dignified.
Upheaval.
Probably the most obvious effect would be the inability of religions to pay property taxes. Taxation on the market value on their elaborate buildings and holdings would likely crush them pretty quickly. As you said, however, personal belief and worship is not affected by a building or heirarchy. Worship that is sincere and heartfelt will continue. That which was a show within the buildings will end. (Which will probably be a relief to the diety who despises hypocrisy anyway.) The complications for the economy may arise at holiday times. Without the religious pressure for such festivals, will the people continue to feed the economy at these times to the extent needed to fuel growth? And how about the political implications which was touched briefly in your earlier comments? If there are no masses to lead, who will herd people together in support of a particular party or candidate? In war time, who will insist that people give their lives for their country as their solemn duty to God? Without religion leading the pack, the pack will cetainly scatter.... to where.....???
Reflections of God?
This comment was posted Sept. 29, 2007 in an exchange on the subject of religon being such an engaging subject; "The relationship with the divinity is also a mirror of the relationship that we have with ourselves and people seem to have a real urgence of trully knowing who they are which, in most cases, is not but a paralel process of an spiritual discovering." I find this completely mesmerizing. Does anyone else see an individual's "relationship with the divinity" as a "mirror of the relationship that we have with ourselves"? And how? Fascinating....
What is respect?
Once I read that "respect honors any reasonable request." That has stuck with me because it can bring a resolve to some of these issues. If a parent has a genuine need and a child is in a position to honor this request, then it may be said to be reasonable. If the request or the expectation becomes a demonstration of a parent's selfishness and control of the child, then the request is unreasonable and cannot be honored. Likewise, if the parent insists the child follow a path of "withdrawing from properly healing the world and its social injustices," such a request is unreasonable. Love provides what is good and beneficial to another whether the recipient appears to deserve it or not. What is 'good and beneficial' may actually be the opposite of what another wants. It is not good nor beneficial to encourage someone to selfishness.
Holy days.
Your description of festivals seems to be the true spirit... even of those who claim a religious bent; "carnival releases from the rules, after which it is finally tolerable to go back and live within the rules again." I find it fascinating that such are referred to as "holy" days.... when they are actually a holiday from the "holy". Curious, isn't it?
Is white the absence of color?
Actually I think I learned that black is really all of the colors absorbed... not sure...
Invisible hand.
Wise advice... change it... Question? Is the "invisible hand" ever on our side? How can we know?
Wow!
Just read back over this again trying to understand... I think I get it... some, anyway. You know, I had always felt that there had to something smaller than just DNA. It seems the more we know, the less we actually know!
I'm sorry about your fire.
So sorry about your loss. I'm glad everyone is ok. Sometimes I think of what really matters and what I would save in a house fire. And I've come to the conclusion that the only important thing is those whom we love. Recently I've felt very strongly that if I can have the one I love, I am quite content to live in a ditch and eat worms. Not that I really prefer worms, but I would be content merely to live. Hope your rebuilding project brings you an even better life than the one before. Good luck!
Reckless.
Thanks for the reminder. Vigilance is necessary until the journey is complete. Yes?
Long haul....
I suppose if you sign up for a race, you're committing yourself to your best. Anything less is cheating.
Hmmmm
Good point. Anyone not supporting the war would be supporting the enemy whether they are aware of it or not.
Curious.
Hi doc. We talked some about this months ago, but I was wondering if you wouldn't mind elaborating on your 'renegade' beliefs. I'd love to hear them. (I ask to be excused from wading through all of your posts. I'm studying right now for a big exam and my brain is about to implode!!!) However, if there are any you don't mind referencing, I'd love to read them. Thanks.
dictionary!
I'm glad to hear it. I've been using mine quite a lot lately and every time I use it I feel bad because you didn't have one.
Flesh and bone.
Well, I think that this is quite possible as you suggest; the altering of the gentics to form a woman from the same matter. And if this is true, then it explains why we search for a soulmate, someone we recognize as soon as we've met them for the first time. (Love at first sight?) I've always been amazed that seemingly happy couples often look similiar in my opinion. I've got this idea that it's like Narcissis, except that you really do see the muse (was it a muse he thought the reflection was?). Question here: Does everyone look for a soulmate? To me it's the final quest, but so many others seem pleased just to exist with whomever they find themselves in bed with.... who knows?
Power of God.
Actually, the 'perfect' person, the mirror image, would have to be IMperfect as we are imperfect, otherwise it couldn't be a reflection. Except in a mirror isn't it actually the opposite deficits somehow? And back to the beginning of this sequence, if God has the power to take dirt and make a man and then take the genetics of a man and alter them to make a woman companion, couldn't he certainly intervene to make sure they end up together in the end?
Are you sure?
I have to take issue with this statement. In the Metropolitan Museum of Art in NYC there is a vast display of Egyptian artifacts. One I especially was impressed with was an Egyptian tiara (crown-like piece of jewelry) that was discovered in Canaan and the museum had dated it 1500 B.C. I found this remarkable since the account of the exodus from Egypt states that the Israelites demanded gold and other valuables from the Egyptians upon leaving the land around this time. This artifact among others that I saw to me supported the Biblical account.
All or nothing?
No. It may be incomplete or in need of correction, but does not mean EVERYTHING is wrong. I may get an answer wrong on an exam, but it does not mean that all of my answers are incorrect.
Disagree.
I disagree. It has been written in a forceful and intimidating manner, but that doesn't make it necessarily true. How can 'evolution' and "created" be used interchangeably in this post? It sounds very contradictory to me.
Explain.
Pleas explain what you mean. Are you meaning that though life was orginally set in motion by a creator, that things were then left to progress on their own without intervention? I don't understand.
Round and round.
Ok, I'll take a stab at this one... The dictionary says that 'imperfect' means incomplete. So in the case of God providing a complement to the man in the woman, I'd say we must be perfectly imperfect. Or maybe it would be both... Are they the same? 'Imperfectly perfect' could mean incomplete though 'without fault or defect.' Sounds circular, I know. Guess I'm not sure. Anybody else?
Soulmates.
Do you believe there is a particular someone we are meant to be with, or are there many that would be just a 'perfect' for us? Why is that we can still feel a void although not alone? Is it just dissatisfaction, discontent, selfishness, a personal internal lack?
Do as I say....
I think hypocrisy gets in the way much of the time. The interpretation of the teachings can be clear and even correct, but when the actions of the group are not in harmony with the stated teachings, confusion arises. Most of Jesus' teachings were pretty straightforward and simple. I think it takes courage to stand for the teachings and bypass the actions; to be able to believe what is said rather than what is done. Sometimes I struggle with the urge to drop it all so as not to have to fight the hypocrisy.
Education
I find it discouraging to think that justice is impossible. If the problem is ignorance and arrogance, then what is needed is a way to educate and humble people. And if the "one-upmanship" is due to selfishness and feelings of inferiority and insecurites, then that education must include learning love. Love would cure selfishness and insecurity. Inferiority is probably kin to arrogance because the person trying to elevate themself likely wants to feel superior, not equal, to another. Some people are as opposed to equality as they would be to inferiority; to many it is the same. Yet, this all just raises more questions.... How to provide such education? And who would submit to such training?
Ignorance.
I believe that this is true. But it seems to me that one of the reasons the teachings have been corrupted is that many if not most of those who try to support their behavior on the Bible, actually haven't ever READ it !! And they certainly haven't meditated on the words enough to assimilate the message. It reminds me of a scene in a movie where an NPR commentator smugly quotes from "Democracy in America" and is later exposed as having never even read the work but merely parroted a quotation she had heard from someone else.
On stage.
Something just occurred to me regarding this post. You ask, "How much should we expect from those who perform?" And I think of the example of Pheidippides ... There seems to be a difference here. When is the race a 'performance' and when is it a 'duty'? This would seem to be the determining factor as to the amount of effort to be invested. Competition of itself does not seem so worthy a goal. As we 'race' day by day, how can we know if the 'performance' is worthy of our all? At what point do we realize the race has no real value, but was merely for the entertainment of the 'gods'? Is entertaining the 'gods' a worthy purpose?
Circle of life?
This idea is fascinating. If life is a continual adoption process, then the process must include continual abandonment for there to be continual adoption.
Open your eyes and ears...
This is excellent. I have been also employing this idea when listening to music, to conversations with those I'm familiar with, and even to news stories. Amazing some of the things you hear when you're listening. Reading magazines with the same mind set can be quite enlightening, too. Amazing some of the things you can see when you're watching.
Building a better burger...
Ok. From this perspective there is a brigther side to the issue. A better burger is a very pleasing result.
Chicken or the egg?
Is it possible that it's actually the other way around? We see a beautiful flower or a sunset and our heart quickens. Even if we didn't have the word ("beauty") to call it, we would know it by our heart's response. And it doesn't take a piece of rotting fruit or a sky inundated with smog to have known the beauty of the former. But perhaps the experience of beauty helps us to name "ugly."
Merriam-Webster.
question n. 1: an interrogative expression (query) 2: a subject for debate. According to the second definition, this qualifies as a question.
Those with their eyes open....
Perhaps it merely is a personal perspective, but anything offensive to the senses may be labeled by that person as "ugly" if they see fit. Frankly, aren't most if not all of the words in our language merely labels for things? Hot, cold, dog, cat, inside, outside ... Do you teach "those in your influence" that they must deny their sensibilities and declare the field of manure "beautiful" when their sense of smell is offended? And please show me the beauty in roadkill or a structure that has been incinerated or a land devasted by mudslides, floods, tornados, hurricanes or war...
Value vs. Beauty.
Yes, I see VALUE in these things. Certainly the vultures have their job to do as do the maggots. But though valuable, I am still at a loss to see BEAUTY in carnage and destruction.
Progress?
Months later... are you still in the same place? If you've traveled beyond, please relate your journey.
Where's Alexander?
So then, maybe the discussions are seeking to find our hidden Alexander. Where is he? It's been quite quiet since 333 BC.
Cloudy day.
One morning last year we woke up to an incredibly dense smoke and fog. No cars passed, the school buses couldn't even come to pick up the children. You could see nothing at all outside the windows. The sun was out, but you could look directly at it with no effect on the eys at all. So strange, and it was only in our neighborhood. Anyway, that same morning the radio signal was so cloudy you could hardly make it out at all and there was no way to tune it. I was thinking about that day recently and asked someone if it's possible that clouds could effect the radio signals and they said, no, that the earth's electromagnetic field or sunspots could do that. So I just wanted to ask someone else's opinion.
Smoke.
There was a faint odor like the smoke from a fire that I noticed in the night. But it didn't seem harsh. I did not go outside; it was so dense you couldn't even see the steps...
Please elaborate.
Fascinating suggestion. Time and eternity not being equivalent... What differentiates the two?
Beautiful life.
This thread keeps lapping at my mind... Why would someone be so insistent that there is only beauty? And then I realized the question was "What makes life ugly?" That makes it make sense. LIFE is not ugly because some frames may be unsightly.
Thank you.
It is vital for us to understand that physical circumstances do not quantify our worth.
Doubts
Giving up control is like falling backwards and not being sure someone is there to catch us.
The Moment
How many times being 'lost in the moment'? Not nearly enough. Guess I would definitely choose eternity over time.
Maybe.
What you say seems reasonable. Nevertheless, I've found this site very helpful to me personally over the past several months. So maybe 'mystery' would be a better word than history... There are many curious matters that I've clarified to a degree here.
In other words?
Or, "Better is the seeing by the eyes than the walking about of the soul"?
Almost there.
Sorry to get your hopes up. We had to deduct half a point for not sharing the wine.
Weak?
Maybe they are not so 'weak' as innocent; naive. Struggling free indicates strength.
Your choice.
Alllegory was my choice because of its complexity and inclusion of various characters in circumstances arriving at a supposed conclusion. Metaphor is fascinating as well. Sean, why do you find metaphor such an effective teacher?
Best teacher...
"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past." --Patrick Henry
Despair.
I must agree with Doc that it affects all classes. It has been my observation that apathy is often born from despair over caring too much. I believe that underneath you will find a great deal of concern, but people have begun to feel there is no point. Perhaps to feign apathy relieves the pain they feel because of hopelessness. Sort of like Jackson Brown's song "The Pretender."
Let me clarify.
Ok. Since I started this mess, let me explain my meaning. Certainly I have made mistakes that have resulted from a lack of clarity (dullness) of mind which is the dictionary's definition of 'stupid.' I do not find this word offensive, I think it is important because at one time or another we all behave with a lack of lucidity and it brings suffering. Maybe to oursellf, maybe to others. So I suppose my question is since sometimes this lack of clarity of mind may even show itself in repetitive behavior, is there a fundamental principle we can apply to abort such a process? Looking carefully at our past and patterns in our life would qualify as 'history.' The point is well taken. If there is another fundamental insight that may also be beneficial, I would love to hear your opinions. Likely others besides myself would appreciate the sharing of such knowledge.
Scrabble.
Today I was playing Scrabble and accidentally stumbled across the word 'herstory'. I had no idea this was an actually word for a feminist view of history! I had no clue this was even a word!
Etymology
Searched the etymology on the net; the word is rife with conflict. Nevertheless, it made it's way into my dictionary.
Clarification
Please allow a clarification: Sometimes rhetorical questions are employed. This sort of question does not require a verbal response ('answer' if you will). I may ask this question to encourage deep thought (reverie) on the part of another which may lead them on a path not previously considered. This sort of thought often precedes action and may subsequently outline a dream.
Sometimes
Actually, I wanted to post that question and when I did I found it had already been asked so I just borrowed the past one.
We are
A million heroes are doing a million things daily, they just don't make it to CNN. I really like a previous post where someone made reference to touching the individual lives of others and the impact that can ultimately have on the world.
P.S.
P.S. But I'm still not completely satisfied with the answer; seems a little incomplete for the dimension of this subject. Any more ideas out there?
Empty planet?
Without individuals we would not have a world. Without individuals we would, in fact, not need a rain forest, its life forms, nor even a planet. We wouldn't even know... nor care.
Among other things...
P.S. Of course it is not the only reason as others have already expressed.
I'm not offended
Maybe so that other posters will understand that you are expressing strong emotion rather than being insulting (as thedoc suggested) try putting the profanity in ALL CAPS. And then, maybe after that you could use some really big words so they won't question your vocabulary and a complicated sentence structure to top it all off. Hang in there, in no time you'll fit in.
Hmmmm...
Hey, congratulations on successfully raising your children as you stated elsewhere... I've heard they often learn by example.
One bear out of millions...
Wonder if an INDIVIDUAL polar bear could impact the oil companies by eating an individual company representative. Seems pointless. Where are the SuperBears who can really save the polar caps?
Then again...
Then again, maybe we are married, living in the country, and driving a 4cyl economy car...
But the question is...
You still haven't answered the question. Some years back, there was a huge discussion to prove that the Nazi Holocaust in WWII had never occurred. It was incredible to me that such a notion would be able to go that far. I am curious who could further such a claim and actually get people to listen to it. And I wonder the purpose of such a denial. What were they hoping to accomplish? Who was it?
Very nice comment
This is really beautiful. Can you do 'If I was love...' ? Or '...wisdom' ? Or '...patience' ?
Modesty
We can never give up trying. If we give up, we die. But it is good to learn from the lessons of the past and remember that sometimes hubris can lead to embarrassment down the road ...or worse.
Human nature
I read once that 'knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.' Sean, please remember that although you feel passionate about your cause (and rightly so), part of being one with nature is recognizing that all humans are also a part of nature. Other humans are one with you in a kinship unlike the animals and plants. I think doc's point is that to genuinely accomplish your task, peacefulness may take you even farther. It is more likely to win you allies.
Batman
Just curious. Who exactly do you intend to attack with the bats? And if you're not going to off somebody literally, how is harsh arrogant speech any more effective than kissing butt?
Critical period of life
Sounds reasonable. What direction do you feel these adolescent psychology and personal development classes should take? There are so many factors in play at this time in life. Which do you believe are most related to this subject of crime? What knowledge do you feel would provide the best deterrent?
Wow !!
Welcome, eyebond47. Incredible questions !! This will give everybody something to work on for a year or two...
Thank you.
Hi doc. Just wanted you to know that I am finding many insights into the mysteries. I am reading "The Power of Myth." Powerful. Thank you.
Chicken
Thanks. Actually, I never really thought they were onions. I was being flip... and I like onions...
Allow me...
mccuej, please forgive my rudeness in response to your question, it just struck a nerve. Back last year there was quite a discussion on this site regarding cheating, especially on the university level. I was shocked that this practice is accepted in the educated community as the norm in order to obtain the necessary degree. This sort of "educated" population frightens me. Once the degree has been effectively extorted, now the person is "educated." And thus, accordingly, qualified to choose a leader for the nation. This is an incredibly sad commentary in my opinion. Give me ignorance any day.
Intimacy
doc, I have to defend the "three second idea." I find eye contact very important and satisfying in communication, but looking "into" someone's eyes puts another twist on things. It can take you aback and produces an awareness that's not like everyday eye contact. I've only experienced it a few times in my life and I've had to be conscious not to look away because it can be uncomfortable to maintain this sort of eye contact.. Maybe this is the kind of experience Sandra is speaking of.
Let's all kiss and make up.
Strangely enough, I think the goading has helped me. In the beginning there were times that I thought the best idea was to flee the site, but I'm glad I didn't. It's been fun and helps me not to take myself (or anyone else) too seriously. I wasn't offended by your "feminist-nazi" reference, doc, but figured she probably would be. (Guess I read her mind.) I felt a little bit miffed by your original response to the thread on cloning, but I'm glad I kept it going because I got my question answered. That one had been bugging me for a long time. Samsara, if you leave, you'll miss out on some interesting communications. Remember, this is just another classroom in the school of life.
Don't give up yet.
There's this Bible quote that says, "Be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath." It's good advice. You will learn not to let yourself become offended so easily. Eleanor Roosevelt said, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." If you patiently hang in there a little longer, I think you'll be pleased you did.
Tell me it isn't so.
Please don't tell me that a confident, mature woman who has attained complete knowledge can actually be offended to the point of tears by name-calling from a stranger on a website !!
What instead?
I agree the penal system is flawed. What do you feel would be a more effective form of punishment?
What's in a name?
I think it should be noted that even though Jesus has (had) a good reputation among his followers and is even respected by some people of other religions today, he did not have a good reputation among many of his contemporaries. The few surviving accounts that describe his reputation at the time mention that people accused him of being 'a gluttonous man given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' And ultimately he died as a most debased criminal. I'm not sure about the Buddha, but he probably had his challenges in this area as well.
Yes.
All of this is the point of the original post; that reputation is not necessarily the true identiy of an individual.
I understand.
Ok. This makes sense: "ideas that if correctly introduced in a palatable way..." My initial understanding because of the context of your comment was that tact would not be considered. And if there is no consideration to ideas being presented in a palatable way, I can't see that it would be any more effective than butt kissing. By the way, I was also referring to 'Woody', just used plural because you seemed passionate and surely one would not suffice. (The vampire route would unqestionably be too cruel.)
Good questions
Sean, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the questions from a new user 'eyebond47'. He was a hit-and-run, but great questions, I thought. Check them out.
Thanks.
Sometimes it takes being overcome by stress to learn how not to let things bother you. I wouldn't change the experience for anything in the world. It was this encounter that taught me what you posted earlier today about love and compassion. I learned that I am everybody, just as you say. Strangely enough, in the same process I have learned that I am also one with the rest of life. I find that I can't even kill bugs or spiders anymore...
Is it love?
Let me ask you about the idea of family being everything to the children in your culture. What happens when one finds they have taken a path that is somehow deviant from the family culture? Does the family then reject them? Are there rules that must be obeyed and a line to tow in order to continue to be accepted by the group, or is that just a western thing. And if it is the same in your culture, tell me, is that really love or is it actually enslavement to conformity the same as it is here? I say this because I see close families and then I see fragmented families. I have noticed quite often that the close families closely monitor the behavior and the sphere of the members in order for them to be assured they will be 'loved.' Members will sacrifice a great deal to hold their place.
Any personal experiences out there?
It would be fascinating to hear a description of a personal telepathic experience from those contributing here. In this sort of communication, how can one be certain the message has been received? Any takers?
Wait a minute...
Somthing just occurred to me... If we are actually here merely as an accident of chance as evolution suggests, and if natural selection is simply the circle of life, why are we down here whining about the extinction of species? Why do we even care? If evolution is correct, then we can't fight it and might as well just go with the flow. And why are we condemning those on the planet who do just that. Are they not simply cooperating with the flow of nature's inevitable?
Deviations
All too often, family seems the place where love is withheld so that control can reside. Perhaps it could be cultural or it may simple be isolated dysfuntional examples.
Philosophy gap
When I first read your question, what came to my mind is whether there have not been similar gaps in history between great philosophers. I'm not sure who you consider to be the great, but there was quite a gap between Socrates and Nietzsche.
Common ground
PeaceProfit was responding to the query as to whether religious wars had accomplished anything of value. You seem to be of the same mind. I understand him to be saying religious conflict has prevented the rise of a singular relgion to be imposed upon all, which would, as you suggest, invariably be distasteful to many.
Popular Music
None of us have the ability to accurately judge the motives of another's art. Since we share the same world and sometimes the same sort of pain or joy that it brings, those who have the ability to express these experiences in words and music often find a willing and appreciative ear and their music becomes popular because iit speaks to many at the same time. Music is usually written from the perspective of and affects those of a particular culture, thus it is frequently unappreciated and misunderstood by those who do not share the same background.
But no one listens.
The quiet reserve of the everyday dog philosopher is worth imitation.
As you say...
Some questions are designed to formulate our own response inside ourselves (to give us pause) and, as you say, do not require "answers."
All
There is a vast sculpture garden nearby I enjoy visiting fairly often. Recently it occurred to me that a disproportionate number of the sculptures have a mythological theme. (Sculptors represented there [both male and female] seem to be especially fascinated with Diana.) Most of the artists are contemporaries of the 20th and 21st centuries. This does not seem to be the case in contemporary painting, literature, or music.
Good question
I recognized this trap one day when I decided to go to the store "to see if there's anything I need."
Trains
Thanks for the pix. Very impressive. Art, in all its forms, certainly brings much pleasure, doesn't it?
Choosing poverty?
In many lands, opportunity simply does not exist and poverty is a result. And even when the poor are living in a land with a healthy economy, though "choices" may contribute to their plight, it is not always the choices they have made personally. It may be the fallout from generations of wrong choices. There are many reasons for poverty and not everyone can 'decide' their way out of the predicament. Likewise, everyone did not 'decide' their way into the predicament.
Popular vote
By definition, democracy is "rule of the majority," so popularity is an unavoidable part of the equation. The media seems to be the best tool to reach the majority. Making credentials and qualifications popular would be the challenge. For that matter, even finding someone with adequate credentials and qualifications is difficult. The problems facing government are much greater than the people who are trying to solve them.
Well said
Recently the credits at the end of a movie had a disclaimer certifying that no animals were hurt during the filming; it was very prominent. Yet how many PEOPLE have been hurt or even killed in movie stunts? What is wrong with this picture?
This raises more questions.
So since the U.S. is a democracy, when do you think the masses became incompetent to choose their leader? Were there times in history where the masses were better informed, and if so, how did they learn? And if this form of government by the majority is not effective because those who are choosing the leaders are ill-informed, what is the alternative? If the masses were not "dumb", what sort of leaders would be installed instead of the ones of late? Is it a matter of the masses lacking wisdom, or are they doing the best they can with the choices before them now?
Disappointment
Your comments have an unmistakable tone of disappointment. Have you seen that this forum has met any of its original objectives? Do you think it has been beneficial in some way? If so, what do you see as its value?
Campbell
Joseph Campbell is well respected by many that contribute to dialog here. He said, "I think it is obscene to judge people in terms of civil law for performances that they rendered in time of war. They were acting not as individuals, they were acting as agents of something above them and to which they had by dedication given themselves. To judge them as though they were individual human beings is totally improper." Do you agree with this philosophy?
Consistency
Each side in a conflict feels their methods or "actions" are justified. "All's fair in...war," as they say. In WWII the Nazi regime adopted methods it felt were justified in the war it was waging. Nevertheless, many of those who supported the actions of that government to which they were dedicated were tried and convicted afterward as individual humans. Is this not a contradiction and thus "obscene" as Campbell suggests?
Marketing
But, you know, if there happened to be 100's of contributors they would never be noticed. Their comments would just fall into the black hole as so many have. With only space for 10 questions and 10 current comments at a time, it would be impossible to even see the posts. Of course, we don't have to worry about that at this time. I wonder how anyone even finds out that this site exists. I stumbled across it as a link on the website of one of my favorite rock bands, actually. How does anyone even know this forum is here? I often wonder how people become aware of the site?
Yes
Yes, I thought it was a joke (and yes, it was cute -- I smiled); but I wanted your serious response, too.
Cute again
And yet isn't WINE-ing one of life's greatest pleasures... (Was that on purpose or a Freudian slip?)
One theory
A few months after 9/11 there were soldiers guarding the airports and instead of feeling safe, I felt very afraid. In fact the first time I saw them, without even thinking, I started to cry. Maybe the presence of uniforms, though they are there for our protection, warns us that we are in potential danger.
P.S.
Incidentally, this holds true for friendships and in the family as well as for romantic relationships.
Mirrors
Mirrors are reflectors... Looking into a mirror, we would see our own reflection, not that of another. Of course, if we can recognize ourself in the eyes of another, that might set aside prejudice. As Thai Sean reminds us all the time, we really are all the same, we are actually one -- one spirit and one substance. Speaking of mirrors, though, it seems to make people uncomfortable to see their own face in another's eyes. Whenever wearing reflecting sunglasses, more than once, I have had people ask me to remove them.
Everyday magic
The magic you speak of sounds a lot like the miracles of fundamentalist thinking. I think we see miracles/magic everyday but are afraid to label them as such (even to ourselves sometimes) because we have a hard time believing what we can't explain, even if we recognize it as reality.
Simple things
You mentioned seeing your life guided when you look back at things. This, to me, is like a miracle. And I mean it in the simplest form, merely intervention. Many would call it by God. Some miracles are spectacular and you can't help but give credit to someone or something higher. Others are more like guidance. In my own life sometimes, had I not had intervention, I'm sure there is no way I could have survived. Those times I never asked for help or even expected it, didn't even know I needed it, but in retrospect it's nothing less than a miracle that I made it through certain situations alive. And then sometimes when I see the clouds, or hear it start to rain, and then see the sun come back out, and my flowers start to bloom, it's all a miracle. Guess those are the things we have a tendency to pass over and "watch them go by." But I like to pause sometimes and appreciate what it has done to enrich my life.
I'm not baiting
I meant it sincerely. It isn't semantics, it's philosophy. And I thought of this yesterday: If the eyes are the window on the soul and the voice is the window opened and the sound of the soul coming out, then the pen is the blood marks of the soul left on the face of time. I think the eyes give us a glimpse of another's soul, but an individuals own expression is the true blood of the matter.
Both
It just occurred to me that passing a window (outside looking in) we can often see our reflection.
Reflexive
I read once that this ability is the mark of a healthy sense of self; the ability to be, in turn, both object and subject. It was referred to as reflexivity.
Core conflict
It sounds as though you feel forced to worship God according to a certain religious doctrine. Love of God is not the domain of religion, but rather, is a very personal matter. Religion may provide knowledge that leads us to appreciate God more or understand him better, but sometimes it can also lead to a conflictual state between what we know love is and what we see practiced. It is important never to ignore such a conflict but to try to work it through to the end. If your religion is causing you to doubt God's love or making it difficult for you to love god, if the teachings are leading you to feel distant rather than closer to God, you may want to rethink what you're being taught. On the other hand, it is possible that the teachings are true and the adherents are hypocritical.
Surival of weakest
War indiscriminately kills both weak and strong as civilian populations are targeted. On the other hand, armies are selective that those capable and strong are enlisted and, unavoidably, die. It seems that this practice of war would, rather, alter evolution by seeing that the weaker survive and the strong are killed off.
Wait a minute...
No it isn't. (Guess I'm not awake yet.) You said peace would cause the weaker to survive. My thoughts are that war causes the weak to survive.
Conformity
Your comment that religious leaders fear "the person who can read and think for themselves" put me in mind of something Viktor Frankl said. "When it comes to evaluating people, collectivism leads us astray. For in place of responsible persons, the collectivist idea substitutes a mere type, and in place of personal responsibility, substitutes conformity to norms." This happens in religion. Responsibility comes to be to the group; to prove conformity. Instead of faith toward God or a personal understanding and relationship, there are requirements to meet the standard of the group. Often the real punishment or even reward is acceptance or rejection by the group. Speaking of the conformity required to be a part of a group, Frankl continues, "In the process, responsibility is whisked away not only for the object of judgment, but for the subject as well. Evaluation by type simplifies things for the person who judges, insofar as it relieves him of the responsibility for the judgment. If we evaluate a human being as a type, we need not take the individual case into account, and that is so convenient." This conformity to group standards which fails to take into account individuality, free will, and personal responsibility is often a recipe for corruption and hypocrisy. "The more standardized a machine is, the better it is; but the more standardized a person is... the more inferior is he from the ethical standpoint." -- "The Doctor and the Soul"
Religious Prejudice
You may appreciate reading a book called "Social Psychology of Prejudice" by Melinda Jones. It is fascinating.
Whew!
You had me feeling a bit nervous there for a minute. If I don't know you by now, guess I'll never know you (or something like that)...
Faith healing
In the gospels it quotes Jesus as saying, "Those ailing need a physician."
Trivial but adorable
I hope you're not offended by this, but I just love it that when your name is put together, without the space between, it is Tomato. :)
Yes
Insightful. So any time a person's name is attached to an organization of any sort, it would be wise to investigate not only the teachings, but also its history and internal workings, to the extent possible. Justice simply cannot permit such corruption to go on forever.
I like...
I think I know what you are saying. At least, it made me see the basic difference between being alone and loneliness as I have experienced it. Being alone, one is without companions while maintaining the ability and choice to share companionship. Being lonely is being without companions and LONGING to share companionship. Was this your thinking?
Manifestation
Love this... very broad... talents manifest by following dreams. This I have seen.
Or not...
Evolution does not occur within a single generation, it is gradual, therefore, such a discussion of the impact of war on civilian vs military populations would have to consider history much further back than what we have witnessed in our lifetime. Perhaps the "strong" of today are actually the progeny of the weak that survived past wars...
Maybe...
One definition of "wrong" is "unsatisfactory." That being the case, the original questioner could possibly be asking why our present efforts are not producing the desired results.
In this context...
In this context, "ineffective." That is, unable to provide concrete solutions to the problems we face as a world-wide society.
More details
With regard to direction, guess that's the best way to explain it better. It is similar to mapping a course to a destination. In this sense, the wrong direction would be the way which ultimately ends up somewhere else. (This is not the same as ethics, as in good and bad.) How foolish to continue on a path that obviously is not leading to the destination simply because it was the road originally chosen. Perhaps we were set on this path by someone we trusted, perhaps we mapped the course ourselves. Either way, if the goal -- the destination -- is further from sight rather than nearer, wisdom would dictate abandoning that track and finding a better course. That being said, my original statement that we stay on an errant course because of lying to ourselves still applies. Ignoring the obvious does not help when goals fade farther and farther out of sight.
Perspective
Maybe there is a genuine quest for knowledge of this type. Others may not share the same interest, but that doesn't make it invalid. Personally, I don't even know what either is. Maybe it's a question for someone else out there.
Complex Home
But demolition was a part of the path, it was not taking them in the opposite direction at all. Are you saying the present path may lead to the demolition of the earth as we know it to make way for another to be rebuilt? Looks like that is the path from certain angles of observation. Doesn't seem like the present home is that far gone at this point. Demolition would be extreme and unnecessary, especially since no one knows how to locate a decent contractor with the ability to rebuild the structure!
Its a big world out there.
Maybe the problem with posts such as this is translation. For many who post here, English is not their first language. For example, this poster is from Bangalore, which I have never even heard of before. Don't forget this is an international website.
Hello doc
Actually, I thought your comment was a joke. I wasn't offended. Having it all and having it now sounds like the ideal set of circumstances if at all possible. I would definitely sign on for that one. --- I'm very pleased your house is coming along well. I've been wondering how far along you are with the project. By the way, did you ever get a dictionary?
OK
They're so mean that they'll bite you when you step on them! OK, please give me the website, maybe it's one I haven't seen yet.
Hope dims
Funny, someone recently said that grits would kill them. Right now my lawn looks like it has leprosy! And the website says that won't work; it just makes them abandon the mound and find another location. Oh well, guess my best hope is that they'll run away to the neighbor's yard. One thing's for sure, I'm not challenging them by stirring up the nests!
Hi Rikia
Hi Rikia. From your response I gather that you are probably Catholic. That being the case, also probably Christian. This kind of thing is exactly what spawned my question. It enrages me and I think would enrage Jesus as well if he were here now. I think of an account in the gospels of a conversation with a Samaritan woman who asked where persons should worship God in order to be acceptable to him. She said that her ancestors believed it was a mountain there in Samaria and that Jews believed Jerusalem was the proper place. His reply was that neither place had access, but rather, that the true worshipers would worship the Father with spirit and truth. Later in the Acts of the Apostles it was stated that God doesn't dwell in handmade temples. So, no, we do not need priests to represent us to God. We only need to approach with our own faith and love. Jesus said we can recognize the true and the false by the way they treat people and the way they treat the law of God they claim to be trustees of. Your suggestion of a nice long walk in the forest is far more likely to connect you with God than a hypocritical man. Just reflect deeply on the gifts you see in the forest and live in that moment and be thankful for your own breath. The connection that you feel will sustain you. God is there in that forest and he is looking for those who want to connect with him.
Doubt and fear
Sometimes I find that though I have the knowledge, I fail to meditate closely enough on the evidence; reflection falters. I think the doubts serve the fear, fear of the unknown, maybe even fear of the magnificent possibilities the power is offering.
In other words...
"Absence diminishes mediocre passions and increases great ones, as the wind blows out candles and fans fire." -- La Rochefocauld
Think again...
But the question was about extraterrestrial INTELLIGENCE. That would include God, would it not?
Why was it written?
The bible is self-explanatory in that it was written to address circumstances here on Earth between man and God (whether through fact or myth, man or God, inspiration or creativity, allegory or actual events). It discusses deviation and restoration here. If such matters were an issue for civilizations elsewhere in the universe, their writings would be relative to those particulars as the bible is to ours. As you say, omission of these matters in the writings does not negate the possibility.
Thank you.
Thank you for your comments. It made me do more research on the topic and I had to admit how often I use stereotypes, even for people, without realizing it.
Thank you.
This information is very valuable. Your insights reflect wisdom beyond 31 years.
Ok
All of these rebuttals have valid points. However, my simple thought was that being free does not make the writings Gonarthouse has compiled worthless. In my opinion, "you get what you pay for" does not apply to these works. Offering these ideas free was very generous.
Vital
Although all of the organs of the body are interconnected and interdependent, it is vital to our quality of life that they have been defined individually. The same can be said of the elements.
Hey Thai
I'm glad the little spat with you doc brought this thread back to life. Since this post I've found something to be more accurate in my life than Patrick Henry's statement. It is more along the lines of the point you were making. "I sometimes look into the past for some set of memories out of which to make myself a story, but there are none in which I can recognized myself that can contain my overflowing life. I realize then that I only live in each fresh succeeding moment." --Andre Gide
Yes
It is unfortunate that so many people with interesting ideas have left because of the goading. It's worth it to stick it out. 'Stating you case' and having the courage to stand beside your thoughts are good exercises for life, as well.
Think before speaking
Sometimes heated exchanges result from lack of thought before posting remarks, as doc has pointed out more than once. When a response is a knee-jerk reaction, it can easily become an invitation for criticism. Many times I've considered posting a remark and deleted it because of anticipating the arguments it will evoke. Just thinking through the holes in my ideas will sometimes lead me to abandon it because I can see it is weak and maybe invalid. When this site is treated as a chat room the sparks fly.
Really?
Developing faster does not determine the level of intelligence. A dog or cat may be able to walk more quickly, but they may never learn to ride a bike, dance, or train for a triathlon. A dog or cat may be able to eat hard food just after a few weeks, but they may never learn to grow a garden, cook, or order a meal in a restaurant. Although their teeth have developed more quickly they may never learn to brush their teeth or floss. My beagle is 14 and she still hasn't learned to talk.
"Smart"?
Carefree may not necessarily mean oblivious. By "smart," do you mean the seemingly intellectual? There is an honest humility that may seem less intellectual or perhaps even uneducated, whereas the "intellectual" may exude worldly wisdom. Happiness often follows the route of simplicity but is seldom admired by those in higher circles. The more unencumbered and stress-free a life is, the more it may appear oblivious. Without the constraints of establishing or maintaining an honored place in society, one may indeed be free of care with regard to the sparring going on around them.
Plenty of time
Hey doc. On my beach walk yesterday I found a sand dollar. As I was rinsing it off in the ocean it broke. I've always heard the legend of the sand dollar; that there are little doves inside, but I've never had the heart of break one. Sure enough, there are five little birds inside. They have little wings with indentations like feathers and a little body, a little head, everything. It isn't a far stretch to imagine it's a bird. Have you ever seen it? Anyway, my point is: If God has the time to hide little birds inside of sand dollars and paint beautiful fish and hide them miles under the sea, or make beautiful sunsets daily that simply fade into oblivion, then surely he has the time to match-make a few billion human soul mates.
On the other hand
Experience has taught me that intuition cannot always be trusted. Sometimes intuition mirrors a past experience that may not link to present circumstances. Silence, for example. Past relationships trained me that rejection was communicated through silence. And, in fact, it WAS in that particular past situation in my life. Because of such an experience I applied that "intuition" to my next relationship. I was wrong. In this new experience, I was dealing with a deep intelligence expressed in reticence. Following my "intuition" I reacted as I would have to my previous conditioning. I was wrong. Intuition is a warning signal based on experience, but can only be trusted if it complies with relevant and complete reflection. Intuition is a feeling, but it must be reviewed and processed as would any other feeling (anger, embarrassment, blame, shame) before acted on.
Oversight
Sorry, doc. There's been so much blah blah here lately (my perception), frankly, I haven't been reading everything. Congratulations! Also, haven't asked about your new home. Settled yet?
Sage advice
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary, For those who do not believe, no proof is enough." I like this. Good philosophy for life.
Illustration
You may find it interesting to check out Rene Magritte's painting, "The Blank Check." Fascinating. Good depiction of Campbell's "dark forest," in my opinion. Interesting, too, that such an experience may not always be as fluid and yours seems to have been. The forest can disorient.
Please feel free
Please do. Go on... People certainly have gone on and on here about things far less interesting.
Symbolic world
No one of us has the power to actually change all of mankind into a cohesive unit. However, the "world" may also refer to the spectrum of each individual's existence. In this vein I can say that those contributing here have had an impact on my "world." Not every word, not every idea; but I have been able to glean useful thoughts I may not have arrived at otherwise.
Love to see
If you can't find a way to post photos here, you can send to my email april1214@ymail.com. I'd love to see them.
hmmm
Those are some mega-quantum leaps in the past few millenniums! You'd think we would have gotten a few photos...
Yes
This brings to mind a conversation Jesus had with a Samaritan woman described in John chapter 4. It was as though she was asking him which was the right church to attend. She said she had been taught it was a mountain there in Samaria and that the Jews believed it was in Jerusalem. He said it was neither, that the true worshipers would worship the Father with spirit and truth.
He doth protest too much.
Both you and Thai Sean have repeatedly expressed the value of myth in teaching, though perhaps they are not to be taken literally at all times. That has been very clear. But whenever the Bible is addressed, for some reason, there is a need to make this doubly certain to the point that its value lessons are discounted more so than other myth. When I mentioned the account of the conversation between Jesus and the Samaritan woman as recorded in the Bible, the purpose was to express that his teachings (as recorded) support the idea that the church does not have domain over the individual worshiper as Thai Sean had just stated in his post. Why the defensiveness?
Sigh.....
Once I asked the question: "Why is it so hard to agree to agree?" I have been agreeing with all along and you can't see it. Please read the posts carefully!
You are not alone
Don't be surprised if there are others working along with you. It IS possible for someone to admire and respect the teachings in the Bible and not be a pawn of the church. It can be very useful to find common ground with people before hitting them over the head. The injustices and crimes of religion speak for themselves when they are related to someone sincere, if you don't close the minds of your audience with what they may interpret as personal attacks. Helping people actually see things clearly for themselves and become motivated to make necessary changes in their loyalties is more important than getting a point across. For many it can be a slow and a very painful process. If you really care about someone's welfare, it becomes easier to show empathy, compassion and patience.
Red Sea
Sometimes we can't see the forest for the fish. Spending too much time debating (even internally) details such as 'which fish' can cause the lessons to be overlooked. Valuable lessons. For example, the Red Sea... Whether it is taken literally or metaphorically, I see the lesson that 'the trap may also be the outlet.' Rollo May speaks of religious conflict, much as you've described your personal path, in "Man's Search for Himself." He suggests finding resolution in the context of the conflict. This helped me. Gandhi expressed his admiration for Jesus and his teachings, but said he hated Christians because they don't follow their namesake. For me, examining the actual teachings for myself (his words as they are expressed in the Bible), led me out of my conflict. His words plainly condemn (and expose) the manipulations and hypocrisy that I have seen in men claiming to be keepers of the word. I agree that the Bible has been used to enslave and frighten people into submission, but that has not turned me against God nor has it negated the value of the wisdom it contains. I agree that there is wisdom in more than one place. Still, I have gathered so much practical knowledge from the Bible, that I cannot negate its value. And I do not see it as a friend of the church. The fact that the church fought so long and hard to keep it out of the hands of the common people, made me really want to examine what was in there that they didn't want the people to find. Thai Sean speaks of heretics who were tortured by the church. Many of these were men who fought to have the Bible translated for the common people so that the church would be exposed. In fact, many were tortured simply for possessing a copy. The result of people becoming familiar with the text has seriously weakened the church's position over the centuries. In our generation, those who actually attend church services worldwide has greatly diminished and many churches have even closed because of non-support. This may be from personal questioning or from the indirect influence of others who have. Those who are herded unmercifully by the church leaders are those who lazily follow men blindly instead of carefully examining doctrine for themselves.
Backlash
I'm very interested to know the reaction of your family to your spiritual decisions.
Hell
"Maybe there is no hell." -- Rhett Butler; "Oh yes, there is. I was raised on it." -- Scarlett O'Hara
Hmmm
I suspect heroes such as Jesus and the Buddha would feel it WAS worth it. If you jumped into an icy river to save someone and they were angry with you because they were trying to commit suicide, would you regret your efforts?
One of us?
You seem exceptionally critical of your own species. Of course, that's merely an assumption. Just wanted to ask before jumping to conclusions.
Strays
I hope you're kidding about the stray dogs and cats, because there are so many 'stray' humans that are suffering at the hands of the 'mentally diseased' you speak of. The destructive faction is one that will be handled by a power much higher than we are. But in the interim, there are many sick and dying humans that at least need a voice. And a voice is not benign. It has been said that the most difficult obstacle for the slave emancipators was convincing the people they were actually slaves, because they had come to accept their lot. Perhaps your campaign and that of others, even if it is not physical or seemingly powerful, can at least awaken individuals to make personal decisions and break free from the 'faction' you speak of.
Iceberg?
If this knowledge and wisdom, the answer to these problems, has been around for thousands of years for the taking, and since the deepest human desires are for peace and happiness, what is preventing its application? When we yearn for peace and justice, how is it that the destructive force has become so powerful? Is there evil beyond humanity that could be driving this apocalypse along?
Choice
If we are products of evolution, then matters are just taking their course. Why are we arguing with the natural turn of events? If we are not products of evolution, then we must have had a designer. Such a designer would be interested in the demise of his creation. If he had the power to bring it all into existence, then he has the power to keep it in existence. And waiting until humans realize they are unable to solve their problems without assistance before intervening shows wisdom as well.
Wisdom
IF there is a God, the lesson that is taught in patience is not one that will benefit the criminals, but rather those who are victimized by them. If you are able to distinguish the two, an intelligence higher than man can certainly do the same.
This really happened.
Thought about you today at lunch, Sean. Ate Chinese. At the end of the meal there were two fortune cookies. This first said, "Hope springs eternally in the human heart." No lie, the second one said, "Ignore previous cookie."
Priorities
Maybe the problem is that those with motivation, passion, and who are "pretty damn smart" are investing their talents and efforts on issues such as the legalization of marijuana while those matters that are leading the extinction of the species on our planet are left to Thai Sean's "powerless" and "retarded" majority.
I'm sorry
You're right. That was her word, not yours. I need to read the posts more carefully.
Hmmm
"when I use that word I mean not knowing...", "The reason I do not use that word is that...", "Just about any mentally retarded person..."
Circular
I just found it amusing because you were so emphatic in your Jan. 8 post that you don't use that word. Then thedoc suggests in a later post that perhaps in a sense the word would have been appropriate. Then you proceed to explain your meaning when you use it after you have announced you don't use it. Then you use it to refer to your mentally challenged friends, though in a gentle way.
Be careful
Seems to me that if all of this is the case, then in actuality, each of us can only say what the myth does for us personally. There may be those who connect to the environment including its spiritual aspects, in ways you cannot perceive, by this very myth. Rather than making such a determined interpretation, perhaps you should qualify the perception as "to me."
Impressive company
Does a questioner not possess the right to question a given response? Simply because an answer is offered does not mean it must be accepted as absolute.
Helpful
Fascinating. Sometimes answers to questions are not simple and sometimes not easily understood. I have found that by further questioning I am often able to find the foundation that will give me a meaningful starting point for more discovery. Often in this forum, however, additional questioning is met with an aggressive defensiveness that can abort discussion.
Consider the student
My husband teaches anatomy and physiology on the college level. Like you, he is very familiar with his subject and has repeated details hundreds of times. As a result, he gets frustrated with students who are slow to comprehend. Your ideas and his subject seem easy enough to those versed, but foreign to the learner. You are not trying to get a point across to a "site" but to individuals, some to which your ideas are new and very unfamiliar. A good teacher will learn to be patient. Perhaps if you view it as a teaching experience instead of "getting a point across" it may quell your frustration.
tic toc?
In the context of myth, which is the subject of this particular dialogue, it is an unfamiliar concept that understanding myth may contain the solution to the world's problems. Just stating that with forcefulness is not enough for someone to embrace the knowledge and learn to apply it. You have stated that we are all the world because of sharing the energy force in all living things (if I've understood correctly). That being the case, if you are able to communicate this information to even one person in a way that they can use, you have affected the world. That would be a good reason to be kind when someone is genuinely trying to learn. Please do do automatically assume that your views are rejected just because they are not accepted heartily at first introduction. When you allow your premature frustration to insult your learner, you may risk losing a world-altering opportunity. If things are genuinely ticking on to the end, can you really afford to lose even one potential ally?
...
The reason this particular dialogue has continued thus far is because of patience. This subject is something I am very curious about. Without patience it would have been abandoned early on. When someone presents information here in an authoritative manner, they have become a teacher. The nature of this forum affords the ability to delay a response. That being the case, frustration can be diffused with a little bit of time and thought. It is not the same as being in front of a classroom of antagonistic students. Those participating here do so by choice. In the short time I have been sharing in this forum, I have seen many leave because of the insulting responses to their questions and comments. At times it seems as though the goal of some is to intimidate contributors; somewhat like being a student in a classroom of antagonistic teachers...
Sorry Mr. C
Unfortunately, it looks like your class walked out. The fact that there are only three regular contributors still here indicates the method may be less than effective.
Ouch
There's a proverb that says, "The first to speak in court sounds right--until the cross-examination begins." Well-deserved medicine...
Or...
Maybe they really like being alive and being human, all the wonderful things we enjoy. Believing you can be a spirit in heaven with God might sound good because it beats the alternative they've been taught to believe. But parting with the beauty and pleasure of the earth isn't an easy pill to swallow. Many have commented here about our oneness with our earthly home. We're a part of it. The thought of a permanent separation isn't really something people can embrace deep inside.
Still learning...
Today I was introduced to this concept in an incredibly powerful way !!!
You've got to be kidding...
If you can't see the difference between coming to a country and invading it, you are clearly illiterate. Doc, let the marquis borrow your dictionary !!!
Question
You say "might look like..." Does that mean that the danger may not be real, may be only a perception?
Illustrations
I think an excellent way to teach is by telling a fascinating story that grips the public and contains scenes and dialog that the viewer unquestionably can relate to as their own errant behavior.
I know...
Seems I LIVE off the page. If something is not absolute, in my opinion it isn't truth. (But I'm well aware that I may be absolutely wrong about that.) To me if it is Truth, then it is indisputable. That being the case, I'd venture to say that Truths have to be few and far between and that it is wise to be very cautious in labeling something as Truth.
Don't get me started...
I think this is the source of so much religious violence throughout the centuries. People want so much to hold on to something absolute, but they are often too lazy to even read the documents that they insist contain The Truth. Oh, maybe they love reading a daily devotional or something like that which they are spoon fed by someone else but will not go further in digging to see if there is a foundation under it or not.
Uh-oh
Don't look now, but your ego is showing... (love it when you two fight...) So cute...
Quote from Gibran:
"My heart weary within me and bade me farewell and repaired to the Abode of Happiness. And when it was come to that sanctuary which the spirit had sanctified, it stood in wonderment for it saw not there things it had imagined. It saw not there power or wealth, nor yet authority. It saw naught save the youth of Beauty and his companion the daughter of Love and their child Wisdom. Then my heart spoke to the daughter of Love and said: 'Where is contentment, O Love? I had heard that it shared with you this dwelling.' And she answered: 'Contentment is away preaching in the city, where is corruption and greed; we are not in need of it in this place. Happiness desires not contentment for happiness is naught but a longing which union embraces; contentment is a diversion conquered by forgetfulness. The immortal soul is not contented, for it is ever desiring of perfection; and perfection is the Infinite.' And my heart spoke to the youth of Beauty and said: 'Show to me the secret of woman, O Beauty, and enlighten me, for you are knowledge.' He said: 'She is you, human heart, and as you were, so was she. She is I, and wheresoever I be, there is she. She is as a religion when the ignorant profane it not; as a full moon when clouds do not hide it; and the breeze untouched by corruption and impurity.' Then my heart drew near to Wisdom, the daughter of Love and Beauty, saying: 'Give me wisdom that I may carry it to humankind.' She answered: 'Say that happiness begins in the holy of holies of the spirit and comes not from without.'" -- A Tear and A Smile
Yes
Thank you. This is exactly where my mind was wandering. Very good to consider this perspective.
No
A person can be nakedly honest and still not know the truth if it was standing there larger than life staring them in the face.
